Noah asked me to weigh in on the work of Frank Frazetta, who died on May 10. Frazetta has probably received more celebratory tributes upon his death than any comics-related figure since Charles Schulz, and for good reason: like Schulz, he is one of the few who succeeded in becoming a pop-culture icon in his own right. I think Noah asked me to write about Frazetta because he knew from things I’d written elsewhere that my attitude towards his work was more ambivalent than what one usually finds. However, I’m not here to knock Frazetta or otherwise take issue with the tone of the tributes. I’d like to examine his work at a more critical distance, and I don’t think those goals are mutually opposed.
I do want to engage in some hyperbole, though. The man could draw and paint. He was a master at depicting the human figure, and the dynamism of his figure constructions was only surpassed by the deft, sensual touch of his rendering. His men had a sculptural, athletic quality, and they rarely felt posed or stiff. Frazetta had a knack for capturing them in the midst of balletic movement, and the male figures he showed in repose had an air of violent portent about them. As for his women, well, no artist has ever depicted women as sexily as Frank Frazetta did. He didn’t favor the lanky, lean-hipped ideal the mass media has championed for the last few decades; his women were curvy and plump, and he rendered them like he was feeling them up in the process. (While paging through his Pillow Book monograph, an old girlfriend said to me, “I like this guy! He makes cellulite look sexy!”) Ironically, the sexiness he gave his women got him fired from Playboy. During a journeyman period in the 1960s, he briefly assisted Harvey Kurtzman and Will Elder with their “Little Annie Fanny” strip. William Stout, who assisted on the strip later on, once told me he asked Kurtzman why Frazetta didn’t work out. Kurtzman said that publisher Hugh Hefner saw Frazetta’s treatment of the title character and threw a fit: “We can’t have this! She looks like he’s thinking about fucking her!” Given that Frazetta was never one for pornographic poses, one can only surmise that Hefner was worried Frazetta’s Annie would show up his centerfold models. And if so, he was probably right.
From “Squeeze Play,” Shock SuspenStories #13, February-March 1954.
The comics work Frazetta headlined himself is a mixed bag. Apart from a couple of strips he drew for Warren’s Creepy magazine in the mid-Sixties, all of it was produced between the mid-‘40s and the mid-’50s. He was a teenager at the start of that period, and the work he produced is very much that of a novice artist learning his craft. In the 1980s, DC and Fantagraphics did Frazetta a disservice by bringing, respectively, his 1950-1951 “Shining Knight” work and 1952 “Thun’da” strips back into print. The storytelling in both is, to be charitable, quaint, and the figure drawing, usually the highlight of Frazetta’s art, suffers from rampant problems with proportions and is generally quite gauche. I picked up both at the time out of curiosity. My impression was that if these were typical, his comics work wasn’t worth paying attention to. Frazetta’s drawing skills didn’t come into their own until the very end of his comics career, and the date is usually the best guide to the work. Anything produced in 1954 or 1955 is just beautifully drawn. Examples include most of his romance comics, “Squeeze Play” and the unfinished text story “Came the Dawn” for EC, as well as his Buck Rogers covers for Famous Funnies and Weird Science-Fantasy. The romance work from 1953 is of the same standard. The work apart from that is really only for completists. One sees flashes of the mature Frazetta here and there, but for the most part it’s like watching a talented player get kicked up to the majors before his time.
From “Empty Heart,” Personal Love #28, August 1954.
Frazetta’s paintings for fantasy-adventure paperback covers in the ‘60s and ‘70s are what made him famous, and my favorite argument with fans that champion them is whether his comics pieces from late 1953 to 1955 are actually the superior efforts. Despite what I’ve said to some people in conversation, I don’t think they are, mainly because they haven’t had the impact on the popular culture that the paintings had. However, I do think the romance and EC material holds greater artistic promise. My main reservation about Frazetta’s paintings, apart from a general antipathy to the sword-and-sorcery adventure material so many of them exemplified, is that even when the subjects are ostensibly original, they’re just him rehashing the entertainment of his youth—Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, 1930s monster movies. The romance and EC material, though, with their focus on the mundane, made him think outside his own box. They challenged him in a way the fantasy material never could, and he responded by bringing a delightfully fresh surface to what were otherwise some pretty humdrum stories. Frazetta often said that his childhood art teacher wanted to send him to Italy to learn how “to paint the street scene.” The teacher died before it could happen, and I, for one, feel the loss. There’s no telling what Frazetta’s talent and eye would have done with such subjects under the tutelage of a disciplined instructor. He might even have rivaled Kirchner.
As for Frazetta’s paintings, it is a bit harsh to characterize them as rehashes of the entertainment of Frazetta’s boyhood. That is what they are at heart, but Frazetta did bring a fresh perspective to their subjects. His principal achievement with these pieces was to highlight and dramatize the male adolescent fantasies that inform the material. The Barbarian (1966), the first and most famous of Frazetta’s paintings for the ‘60s reprint series of Robert E. Howard’s “Conan the Barbarian” stories may be the best example. The protagonist, a living sculpture of muscle and sinew, has asserted his dominance over all others and stands, stoically triumphant, over a heap of their remains. A woman clings to one of his legs, her appearance and action suggesting subservience, a desire for protection, and sexual availability. In short, the painting is an all but perfect inversion of the adolescent male’s central insecurities—those of physical strength, the competence to handle the world’s challenges, and sexual appeal to women. The protagonist’s indifferently domineering attitude towards the woman is an expression of the fear of women’s ability to assert authority in an interaction. What gives the painting its power is that it is so starkly lacking in awareness of the irony it depicts, which makes it a wish-fulfillment fantasy to be reckoned with. It’s not the least bit politically correct—I fully agree with those who find its misogyny and glamorizing of might-makes-right violence repugnant—but there’s no denying that it resonates with common human desires. And in art, resonance is often all that matters.
In any case, when one goes through the more offensive tropes in Frazetta’s artwork, there are much bigger fish to fry. One is the rape imagery. A recurring scene in his art shows a subhuman creature—often a Neanderthal—carrying off one of Frazetta’s trademark half-naked Amazons over his shoulder, and with no salvation in sight. However, the aspect of Frazetta’s art I find the most shocking is his fascination with executioners. The attitude behind it is about as anti-social as they come. In most cultures, the executioner is both a terrifying and pathetic figure. He’s terrifying because he has the state’s license to slaughter his fellow citizens (criminals, yes, but still), and his victims can do nothing to defend themselves. But he’s also pathetic: he does society’s dirtiest work for it, and his fellow citizens repay him with ostracism—he’s shunned in all his interactions with others. Most of Frazetta’s executioner scenes simply emphasize the former and ignore the latter. One would think that this is horrifying enough, but it’s nothing when one considers the images where he did confront the pathos. His response was to invert the executioner’s alienation from society into a romantic, self-reliant pose. I am writing, of course, of The Death Dealer (1973) and its affiliated paintings, in which Frazetta reimagined the executioner figure as a knight-errant. Is there anything more appalling in the arts than taking society’s disgust with itself and turning it into a heroic point of pride? And sadly, there is—The Death Dealer became probably its creator’s most famous and popular work.
But no matter how odious some of Frazetta’s imagery could get, he always came up with something that redeemed his more offensive moments, and it was usually the women who saved him. Cat Girl (1984), the most popular of his later efforts, is a lusciously atmospheric inversion of adolescent male anxieties about sex and women. The protagonist is a gorgeous, plushly-figured woman, wholly unabashed by her nudity and the viewer’s gaze. Everything about her speaks to her desire to be seen as a sexual object. But she is flanked on all sides by leopards—the deadliest and most agile of predators—and while they appear willing to let one approach, there’s no knowing if they’ll let one depart. The protagonist may be offering sex, or she may be using it as a lure to one’s doom, or she may be doing both. One looks at her and feels both lust and terror. That tension is not an unusual subject for a painting; Picasso evoked it in Les Demoiselles d’Avignon (1907), considered by many to be the greatest painting of the twentieth century, and it is also present in Matisse’s early masterwork Carmelina (1904). Cat Girl is nowhere near the level of Les Demoiselles d’Avignon–Frazetta can’t begin to compete with Picasso’s stylistic originality—but I think it’s a stronger work than the Matisse. Carmelina explores the subject entirely through characterization; its central dynamic is the contrast between the harshness of the protagonist’s face and the sensuousness of her body. Frazetta’s treatment is far more poetic—the drama is created through metaphor. I think Cat Girl is the finest thing he ever did, and one notes that he was extremely fond of it himself; the original was kept framed above the drawing board in his studio.
I could discuss more. This talk of how Frazetta once outdid Matisse makes me want to visit the subject of fine art versus illustration, and how no illustrator apart from Doré will ever stand alongside the giants of fine art. I feel the compulsion to talk about how Frazetta, a wonderful illustrator at his best, could never be considered a great painter. But enough. As one of his audience, I always end up coming back to my awe at his figure drawing and my delight in his rendering ability. No matter how repellent I find some of his images, I admire others a great deal. Frazetta was a working-class guy, so I imagine he preferred beer to wine. So with that in mind, let’s kick back and raise a mug in his honor. His work offers more than enough justification for a toast.





161 Comments
“no illustrator apart from Doré will ever stand alongside the giants of fine art.”
You need to see some Japanese prints, man. Dore is great, but he’s not a patch on Hokusai.
More to the point — thanks so much for doing this Robert. I’m not someone who knows a ton about Frazetta, but all the tributes were making me like him less and less — not that I don’t see the appeal, but that there are so obviously problems which got blurred out in the hagiography. Your warts and all appreciation makes me like him much more.
And even want to defend him in spots. The romance of the executioner you talk about…there’s a parallel in metal obviously, with a kind of death worship. I think loathing of humanity has its place; I don’t think it’s necessarily evil or verboten, in any case.
The difference with Frazetta and metal maybe is that the loathing in a lot of metal is actually quite Christian (or explicitly Satanic, which is basically the same thing for these purposes.) There’s a kind of reveling in degradation which is about despising the body. Frazetta’s much more clearly and straightforwardly pagan; there’s a worship of force for its own sake, as a sign of mastery rather than annihilation. You could never see Frazetta condoning pacifism, whereas there’s actually lots of pacifist metal (starting with Black Sabbath.)
Which actually ends with me liking Frazetta less than I thought I might at the beginning of the paragraph up there. But so it goes. It’s nice to see these issues brought up, in any case….
Robert,
I thought your article was an excellent counter-point to the admiration. You illustrated your points clearly and I found myself almost agreeing with most of them.
Especially with your assessment of his comics work. I adore his work on Ace McCoy and the EC material. But, as a black man, I absolutely loathe his Thund’a for obvious reasons. And with regard to ethnicity, I realize upon reflection that I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen Frazetta illustrate non-white subjects.
An observation, not a criticism.
Frazetta has repeatedly said that all those heavy-duty paintings were not his primary nature, even though they obviously resided quite deeply within his id. Instead, Frazetta has repeatedly cited the material from the ‘Pillow Book’ and his more playful watercolors as ‘the real him’. I’m prone to believe this given his immense love of his family and the sheer beauty by which those watercolors present.
Any way you cut it, Frazetta will be (and should be) remembered as one of the monoliths of 20th Century American illustration. Bar none.
Reasonable assessment for the most part, but I think you began to over-analyze Frazetta’s motivations with your “executioner” and “rape imagery” tangents.
In my opinion, the painting “Death Dealer” is not part of Frazetta’s executioner motif — an “executioner on a horse,” so to speak. It’s simply a bad-ass warrior on a horse. You’re projecting, I think.
As for Frazetta’s “rape imagery” motif being “offensive,” how about historically accurate? Not regarding Neanderthals, of course — as we only have indirect evidence about their social and warfare practices — but regarding homo sapien cultural realities. Until relatively recent times, in almost every culture around the world, it was customary for conquering tribes, nation-states or empires to take slaves. Frequently, every fighting-age male on the losing side was put to death, while the females and children of the vanquished were rounded up and taken as slaves.
In short, I think Frazetta’s frequent martial-themed paintings were merely a reflection, or his interpretation, of a earlier time when death, slavery and destruction were a fact of life and part of mankind’s struggle to survive. As for his more fantastic themes, Frazetta mixed his unique factual interpretations with his imagination, with spectacular results.
Hey Russ. Nice to see you over here.
Enough with the civility! I think your anthropology and history are both fairly silly. Warfare is an important part of the human experience, but peace is on the whole more typical. If it weren’t, we’d probably all be dead. So choosing to focus on violence and war isn’t a objective historical truth. It’s a value judgment in itself.
Besides, Frazetta isn’t reporting on violence as a dispassionate observer. He fetishizes it. That’s the point. That’s why the warrior is bad ass. You can’t have it both ways. Either the warrior is cool or war is just a fact, neither cool nor un.
I think Frazetta fans, and perhaps Frazetta himself, like to believe that they’re reacting to something primal and authentic in looking at his work. But I look at it and I just see tropes; fanciful creations based on post-enlightenment ideas about paganism and the authenticity of the primitive which could only gain currency in a non-pagan, not at all primitive society.
Which isn’t to say it’s bad. But you’re saying it shouldn’t be criticized because it’s true to life, and particularly in regard to Frazetta, that seems like transparent nonsense.
Actually, what I’m saying is I think there are a few folks reading more, psychologically, into some of Frazetta’s work than is actually there.
I mean, yeah, his art generally did focus on the dark, the horrific and the fantastic. He obviously “clicked” with the writings of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs. But so did lots of creators from the 1960s and 1970s.
Personally, I think Frazetta developed his fondness of horror and science fiction from the EC bullpen. They were the industry benchmark of greatness during Frazetta’s formative years, and, being the very competitive guy that he was, Frazetta consciously/subconsciously set out to out-render the artistic top dogs at their own game.
I mean, those “Buck Rogers” covers drawn in 1953-1955 practically scream, “Hey EC guys… look at MY cover art!” After all, it wasn’t until EC was nearly dead when they finally got around to giving Frazetta a cover assignment (a stage he obviously preferred) — and even THAT cover was a “Buck Rogers” reject!
Re: Ethnicity–
In many ways, Frazetta made his name illustrating a lot of pulpy turn of the century (the 1900s, not 2000s) era fantasy adventures, both in his comics work and book covers, and that informs much of his Joseph Conrad-flavoured imagery. He also played a lot with the “exotically sexy foreign woman” motif as well.
Adrian, have you ever seen that painting of his for the National Lampoon magazine cheekily titled “White Man’s Wet Dream”? It shows a naked white woman tied to a pole with an Allan Quatermain-type blasting away savage African primitives with a gun. Apparently Frazetta’s politics were quite different from the Lampoon’s more leftist-leaning politics but he happily went along with their jokes and requests because they paid well and gave him a lot of freedom.
Politics aside, I have the utmost respect for Frazetta and I really admire his combination of traditional technique and his own strong individuality. And I agree with Robert that “Cat Girl” is among his very best, although I also have a strong attachment to his John Carter series of paintings.
Noah–
I certainly know Hokusai’s (and Hiroshige’s) work–and love it. When I brought up Dore, I was thinking of the Western tradition in book illustration.
There was a vogue for Frazetta’s work in the ’70s among hard-rock groups. I particularly remember Molly Hatchett using The Death Dealer and another painting for their album covers. It was my first exposure to Frazetta. I was an elementary-school kid in the Sarasota-Bradenton area of Florida back then, and Molly Hatchett T-shirts were ubiquitous among the teenagers.
Adrian–
I wished I’d brought the Johnny Comet/Ace McCoy material in the discussion. Thanks for bringing it up. If one wants to see Frazetta’s development as a draftsman, a collection of that stuff is the place to go
As for Thun’da, the most offensive aspect of it, as I recall, was Frazetta’s cover for the 1952 edition. (Those curious should click here.) Fantagraphics wisely avoided using it when they reprinted it in 1987. It’s really foul.
Russ–
It’s not my sense that Frazetta was the least bit reflective about the content of his work. He was just following his own compulsions and impulses. I went out of my way to emphasize that he was oblivious to the meanings embodied by his Conan portrait, and I hoped that point would be implicit in my discussion of his other paintings. On a personal level, all I think he was doing was trying to recreate the romantic feeling of being a shit-kicking loner when he was growing up. The tropes I highlight in the Conan and Death Dealer pieces relate to the meanings they have for the larger culture.
And yes, I do think the Death Dealer was a development from the executioner imagery one sees in places like the cover to Creepy #17. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I wouldn’t have brought up the rape imagery if it wasn’t rampant throughout Frazetta’s paintings and sketches. It’s obvious it was compulsive on his part. That Neanderthal scenario is one he replays again and again.
Robert, thanks for a lucid yet appreciative survey of Frazetta’s work.
Some remarks: death dealer is not weilding an executioner’s axe. That’s a francisque, the throwing axe of the Franks.
Another remark: frazetta may well be the greatest comics cover artist of all time…but he’s also the author of easily the stupidest comics cover of all time:
http://www.comics.org/issue/20850/cover/4/
Think it through. What happens in the next second, when the horned demon brings down his sword?
Robert:
Well done! That’s all I have to say. One voice isn’t near enough, but at least it’s one critical voice among, as Noah put it, hagiographers.
“This talk of how Frazetta once outdid Matisse makes me want to visit the subject of fine art versus illustration, and how no illustrator apart from Doré will ever stand alongside the giants of fine art.”
The above quote is intriguing though: how can “the giants of fine art” be below themselves?
Examples? Toulouse-Lautrec’s illustrations for _Histoires Naturelles_ by Jules Renard; Pablo Picasso’s illustrations for _Saint Matorel_ by Max Jacob and, of course, _Metamorphoses_ by Ovid; Odilon Redon’d illustrations for _La Tentation de Saint-Antoine_ by Gustave Flaubert; Sonia Delauney’s illustrations for the poems of Blaise Cendrars. Not to mention artists’ books by Max Ernst, Jean Dubuffet, etc…
Those Picasso Metamorphoses images are brilliant.
(A couple samples on my blog: http://madinkbeard.com/blog/archives/fine-art-and-comics )
Must-resist-the-temptation-to-argue-that-fine-art-and-illustration-can-be-one-and-the-same…
Russ–
Please, please argue it!
I’ve got paragraphs from abandoned drafts that I’m just dying to unleash upon the world!
Alex–
Didn’t Genesis (in the Peter Gabriel days) use that image for one of their album covers?
Fine art illustrated the Bible for centuries.
Unleash the paragraphs, Robert!
Let me give Russ just a little longer.
Four or five years ago, Domingos, I and a number of other folks beat the subject to death on the previous incarnation of the Comics Journal message board. Dirk may have that stuff archived, but us average schmoes sure can’t access it.
In any case, historically, when fine art world folks pooh-pooh “illustration” (which includes comics, pulp art paintings, and other popular culture renderings) as some lesser form of art (if they even classify it as art at all), their usual rationale centers upon these basic tenets: Illustrations are creations done quickly, for pay, for a mass audience.
When I skewered such logic, I used a fine art icon: Rembrandt.
At times, Rembrandt worked very fast; he usually painted for money; and sometimes, he did paintings for public display which, at the time, arguably reached hundreds or even thousands — a substantial audience in an era when mass communication was in its infancy.
I think I also cited Michelangelo, who did a huge amount of commissioned work for the church — work that was seen regularly by commoner and royalty alike.
The fact is, ANY argument used by the fine art community to pigeonhole something as fine art, as opposed to illustration, I can effortlessly shred.
The fact is, since many in the art world disengaged themselves from what was, in the late 19th Century, perceived as a classical art albatross around their necks, the art world has slid into total anarchy.
Under today’s conditions, damn near ANYTHING can be classified as “fine art,” so there is no reason whatsoever for popular culture art to be arbitrarily excluded.
Dürer and Da Vinci also did not disdain illustration.
Closer to our time, recall the beautiful posters that Manet drew for Le Chat Noir and other cabarets.
Ooo-kay.
First of all, when the question of fine art versus illustration is being discussed, at least among the art historians I know or have read, we’re talking about it within the context of the media culture that began in the 19th century. No one is denigrating Dürer or anyone else from before the time in question. That work was created in a vastly different context, and bringing it up, while often not intended as such, is a red herring.
It’s also something of a red herring to bring up the illustration work of Picasso or Manet. That is not their major work, and if those were their only extant efforts, no one would particularly care who they are today. Nobody is faulting anyone for liking it, just that it be kept in perspective. Manet’s cabaret posters are not in the league of his Olympia or Le Dejeuner sur l’herbe.
That said, here are the paragraphs I referred to above:
Let’s get a couple of obvious but unpleasant judgments out of the way. Frazetta wasn’t a great cartoonist, and he wasn’t a great painter. His stature as a comic-book artist is based entirely on his drawing ability—when he came into his own around 1954, his figure-drawing and inking skills may have been the finest the field had ever known. But he never drew a single memorable story or produced an indelible bit of visual dramatization. His painting is more accomplished—the most effective images have some staying power—but for all his skill, Frazetta was never more than an illustrator. And illustration is a dead end in the pursuit of artistic immortality.
Aficionados of illustration often find they and art historians talk past one another. They have completely different assumptions about what constitutes good art, particularly when evaluating the work of the last 150 years or so. Illustration aficionados celebrate technical skill, while art historians lionize idiosyncrasy and the artist’s ability to explore and expand the range of meaning and perception. For example, if one asked an illustration fan to look at the work of salon painter extraordinaire William-Adolphe Bouguereau alongside that of arch-Impressionist Claude Monet, the illustration fan can be expected to say that Bouguereau was the better artist. He’s a more skillful draftsman, and he knows how to render things in a way that makes them look real. Art history, of course, has judged Monet the better artist. He showed the ways light can shape what one sees from moment to moment, and in so doing, he expanded people’s perception of the world around them. Art historians often mock Bouguereau as a stodgy show-off who was content to reinvent the wheel. Elevating Bouguereau over Monet, or dismissing Pollock and Rauschenberg in favor of Frazetta (an otherwise erudite illustration fan actually did the latter in a conversation with me) strikes art historians as philistine. And when one sees the relative influence the Monets, the Pollocks, and the Rauschenbergs have had on the general visual culture, including the work of illustrators, one can’t help but think they’re right. Illustrators generally just repeat the visual ideas and innovations generated by the better fine artists, and their usage is typically more decorative than profound.
The only illustrator whose achievements stand with those of the giants of fine art is Gustave Doré. He came along at the tail end of the Romantic movement, and one sees him recreating many of its visual tropes, such as using vast distances to evoke awe at the power of nature and God. However, Doré used Romantic imagery to render the classics of Western literature—The Bible, The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost—and he managed to transform the culture’s perception of them. In Doré’s hands, they stood with the zeitgeist rather than apart from it. The spirit of Romanticism remains strong in our culture to this day, and his imagery remains as captivating as ever. His pictures define the underlying works for millions of people. Even those who have never read the books recognize the images’ power. Has there ever been another book illustrator whose work redefined such significant underlying works in ways that were felt across the culture and through the decades that followed? I don’t think so.
Frazetta certainly didn’t accomplish anything at that level. His career was devoted to rehashing the tropes of popular entertainment from his childhood and adolescence—imagery derived from Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, King Kong, and the Universal Studios monster movies of the 1930s and ‘40s. There was a vogue for his work in the mid-to-late 1970s among North American teenage boys, but apart from that, it has never generated much interest beyond the subcultures of comics, illustration, and sf/fantasy enthusiasts. His achievements were pretty modest.
One last thing. No one is arguing that all fine art is automatically superior to all illustration. We’re talking about this in terms of the best work both fields have to offer. When one looks at the achievement of the likes of Van Gogh, Picasso, and Pollock relative to that of Pyle, Rockwell, and Peak, there is just no comparison.
You’re probably referring only to the West again..but the argument against the importance of illustration completely falls apart if you look at Japan….
In fact, Japanese illustration is really important in Western art as well — Picasso, the impressionists, Gauguin, etc., were all very influenced by Japanese prints…..
Noah–
The debate about fine art and illustration is centered on work that was produced in the context of the commercial-media cultures that began to thrive in Europe and North America in the mid-19th century. I don’t think you saw that sort of thing take root in Japan until after World War II. It certainly wasn’t going on there in Hokusai and Hiroshige’s time. Hokusai had died a few years before Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo Bay in 1854, and Hiroshige wasn’t alive for long afterward.
Also, Hokusai and Hiroshige were not illustrators in the sense that someone like Dore was. They were print artists. They weren’t doing work that was intended to enhance the commercial prospects of another venture. (Or, in Frazetta’s case, might as well have been, given the aesthetics on display.) The closest analogue to the great Japanese printmakers would be someone like Durer or, in the 20th century, the printwork of artists like Kirchner, Kollwitz, and Nolde.
I think you’re on somewhat thin ice when you say that Hokusai and Hiroshige and those folks weren’t part of a commercial media culture. Obviously there are differences with 19th century Europe…but print series in Japan were absolutely a popular form. Sold like hotcakes…and were, moreover, linked to a multimedia context (particularly the theater.) They also illustrated narratives, too, and had important supporting text. It’s not the same as an illustrated story exactly…but the differences put it closer to comics rather than closer to fine art illustration in a western sense, I’d argue.
Basically, Japan had a commercial media culture before it opened up to the West (including things like point of purchase advertising, for example.) That doesn’t mean you’re wrong about the division between illustration and fine art in a western context. But it does provide a different, parallel model for how that relationship could work out.
And, of course, that parallel model ended up being really important for both illustration in the west and fine art. That doesn’t really matter for Frazetta, I don’t think, but it does matter for folks like Beardsley and Rackham, who certainly have cred and influence and importance in their own right.
Well, the commercial-media culture in Tokyo in the 1840s was nothing like what one saw develop in Paris, London, and New York.
By the way, I forgot about Beardsley throughout all of this. He was to Art Nouveau what Dore was to Romanticism. He certainly transcended the illustrator label.
I can’t make that case for Rackham, though. Nor for John Tenniel.
“First of all, when the question of fine art versus illustration is being discussed, at least among the art historians I know or have read, we’re talking about it within the context of the media culture that began in the 19th century.”
Just so I can understand your point better, Robert, what exactly happened (from your point of view) in the middle of the 19th century to almost automatically degrade the quality of illustration art? In other words, why do you and the art historians you read draw this line in the sand?
Relatedly…do you actually feel the quality of illustration was degraded Robert? Or are you just arguing that it lost status? Is is a qualitative argument, or one focused on cultural positioning?
The bottom line is that in today’s world, whenever a fine art advocate starts specifically defining what fine art allegedly is, it’s clear that work traditionally labeled “illustration” meets most, if not all, the exact same criteria.
“Illustration” is not some alleged separate entity anymore, as one may have convincingly argued it was, say, in the early part of the last century. At that point in time, fine art had historically been looked upon as art primarily done in the classical vein by classically trained artists — artists who started out as students at some respectable art school, went on to become understudies for some master, and then, hopefully, at some point in life, became masters themselves.
Fine art snobs denigrated newspaper, magazine and other popular culture artists as lower-level, lesser-skilled, production-line creators working for the (yuck) masses, and slapped them with the term “illustrator” — a pejorative term as demeaning and dismissive in the minds of fine art advocates as any racial slur is to a bigot. And as often happens in such master/slave environments, many “lower-level” artists slapped with that label began referring to themselves in such pejorative terms as well – hence you get people like Norman Rockwell stating early on in his career, “I’m an illustrator.” This, of course, is total bullshit. Rockwell was actually a fine artist in the exact same sense as Rembrandt was.
Robert:
You are using all the rhetorical tricks that comics haters used over the years. Comics are trash and those comics that aren’t trash are not comics. It was this kind of “reasoning” that lead Lawrence L. Langer to write in the New York Times Book Review: “Art Spiegelman doesn’t draw comics.” See here: http://tinyurl.com/34h8w75
Maybe what you want to say is “commercial art,” instead of “illustration?” The two overlap, of course, but they’re not exactly the same.
Besides, dismissing illustration as commercial art (and I don’t even want to imply that there’s no value in the latter), you claim that great artists of the “fine” persuasion didn’t do their best work when they did the former. I beg to differ, but that’s a matter of opinion, so, I’ll leave it at that…
Your generalizations about illustrantin and fine art “fans” don’t hit the mark as far as yours truly is concerned. Maybe the best of the commercial artists was Norman Rockwell (with Frank a close second). I view him as the Capitalist equivalent of Socialist Realism. What he did was kitschy popaganda. Even so I think that this http://tinyurl.com/3xgdgj is a great painting (I don’t mind a bit of melodrama – I’m talking about the dog) and this is a powerful statement: http://tinyurl.com/yjkajjp
It’s better to judge on a case by case basis instead of doing biased generalizations.
As I said, replying to a post by Caro, the dismissal of realism, naturalism, academicism, etc… as “illustration” happened after Cézanne declared war on everything that wasn’t exploring the pure means of painting. He was an essentialist and so was all the Modernism that followed. We tend to forget that all this happened more than 100 years ago and we’re not there anymore.
Noah:
I think that you are refering to kibyoshi, right?
Suat:
“what exactly happened (from your point of view) in the middle of the 19th century to almost automatically degrade the quality of illustration art?”
I know that you didn’t ask me, but I would answer simply by saying: criteria to judge art changed, that’s all… If you read Bourdieu you will understand why: with Romanticism and the appearance of the art market artists didn’t depend on patrons who told them what to do anymore. So, they started working primarily for themselves exploring their medium’s possibilities. If those experiments sold in art galleries, great, if not, though titty. The thing is that everything that wasn’t “an experiment” was dismissed. That’s why Modernism was obcessed with “the new.” Personally I think that great art may have fallen in the cracks, but that’s unavoidable. We need criteria in order to judge, but they also function like blinders.
Domingos is defending Norman Rockwell? I think that means this thread officially wins.
Domingos, I hate to admit I don’t think I’ve ever seen kibyoshi. I was actually thinking of Japanese print series, which tend to include text, narrative, and structural elements in ways which link them to western illustration and comics in some ways, though not in all obviously.
Noah:
Kibyoshi:
http://tinyurl.com/2u5bnjz
http://tinyurl.com/3xlh5m8
Robert wrote: “Frazetta certainly didn’t accomplish anything at that level. His career was devoted to rehashing the tropes of popular entertainment from his childhood and adolescence—imagery derived from Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, King Kong, and the Universal Studios monster movies of the 1930s and ‘40s”
The source material doesn’t matter a whit regarding the alleged differences between a fine artist and an illustrator.
If it did, I could be just as dismissive of a past master with a statement like, “Michelangelo’s career was devoted to rehashing the tropes of popular stories from his childhood and adolescence—imagery derived from the Bible, and Greek and Roman mythology.”
Nope, that argument is nothing more than a diversion.
Frazetta captured something in his work that no other creator from his era could. He had plenty of imitators, but none of them were ever able to emulate that same special spark that Frazetta’s best work had.
Belaboring my “special something” point, when I first looked at some of Frazetta’s paintings, all I could say was, “Wow!” I rarely did that with works from most of his peers.
Think of it as a Mona Lisa moment. What is it about the Mona Lisa that sets it apart from the countless other outstanding Renaissance-era portraits? The fact is, it’s difficult to put it into words. Yet, when you first look at da Vinci’s classic piece, you just KNOW it has that special something.
Frazetta’s best work evokes that same special “something” — that “Mona Lisa moment.”
You’re kind of saying that content doesn’t matter, Russ. I don’t think that’s the case. And reducing it to a “special something” seems to be an effort to defer analysis rather than analysis itself.
Here’s a great essay about FF abilities as a visual arts technician:
http://sirspamdalot.livejournal.com/68226.html
I didn’t say a composition’s content didn’t matter. I said the source material didn’t matter. In the creative world, those are two very different things.
For example, the source material for the films “Bride of Frankenstein” and “Frankenstein Conquers the World” is Mary Shelley’s 1818 book, yet artistically, there is no comparison between the composition of the two films’ content.
Make sense?
As for not elaborating on Frazetta’s “special something,” I’m not really intentionally trying to defer my analysis. It’s more of a case of I’m just at a loss for words (a rarity for me) of exactly why I find some of his paintings so damn powerful. I’ll let it roll around in my head for awhile and maybe I’ll have an epiphany.
Yes, the difference between source material and content makes sense. Thanks.
I think Frazetta did have problems with content, at least from what I’ve seen. In the sense that the sources of his imagery and ideas were not very sophisticated or interesting (basic adolescent power fantasy stuff) and he seemed to accept that fairly uncritically and do little of interest with it conceptually. As opposed to someone like Beardsley, who took illustrative work and really added his own take on it (sexual, ironic, whatever). Or, again, to Japanese printmakers.
Obviously there’s a lot to like in Frazetta too, as that Jesse Hamm article Domingos links makes clear. But when Hamm starts to try to claim some worth for the content (claiming it’s positive for women, or that it does something worthwhile with race) — it just doesn’t seem very convincing to me.
Suat–
A confluence of things happened.
One was the rise of mass-market newspaper, magazine, and book publishing, as well as ubiquitous print advertising. This created a large demand for artists, and publishers didn’t mind settling for the third- and fourth-rate, which tended to drive the general quality down. You see a similar dynamic at work in what is fairly laughably described as the Golden Age of American comic books. (As R. Fiore once remarked, the only thing golden was the profit margin.) That gave illustration a general reputation for shoddiness as well as it being the province of less than first-rate talents.
Two, the center of the Western art world was Paris, and the most prominent painters–academic salon artists like Bouguereau and Cabanel–were content to use their unsurpassed technical skills to rehash Ingres’ work and run it into the ground. Their work highlighted how empty and sterile technical perfection for its own sake was, and helped give classical art skills a bad name. As printing technologies improved, painters of this sort moved into illustration work, but they did about as much good for its reputation as Alex Ross did for that of superhero comics. And like superhero comics, if one doesn’t develop a taste for it as an undiscriminating kid, one doesn’t tend to have any interest in it as an adult.
Third, the period saw the birth of modern painting with the Impressionist movement. The development of an idiosyncratic visual vocabulary and audience-challenging techniques replaced classical technical skills as the criteria by which new artists were evaluated. The births of modern painting and the category of “fine art” are pretty much one and the same.
To sum up, the fine art context came to be seen as where the best–defined as the most innovative–work was being done. Illustration was the home of immature or inferior talents, and even those who rose above the muck were seen as employing styles that were hackneyed or derivative.
Noah–
As can be seen fom my answer to Suat, the answer to your question is both. Yeah, in technical terms the quality dropped, but, more importantly, standards changed. Essentially, the quickest way to get labeled a second-rate artist was to retread the stylistic ground of artists who preceded you.
Russ–
I’m a fine art advocate, at least in the sense that I think the best of it is leagues more accomplished than what one will find in illustration fields, and I’ve laid out a pretty conventional criteria that has illustration always falling short. One all but never sees innovative visual techniques emerge from the field of illustration. Even the most technically fanciful illustration work (such as Bob Peak’s) invariably makes derivative use of approaches that come out of the fine-art context.
I get the distinct sense from reading your responses that you feel art should be evaluated according to a Platonic set of rules that revolve around mastery of classical skills. Modern art doesn’t play by that criteria. The modern artist’s challenge is to create his or her own skills.
I also get the feeling that you’ve never really engaged with work from the Impressionist period on. (To be blunt, it’s my sense you’ve never studied art history at all.) Can you say why Van Gogh’s Night Cafe is considered a great painting? Or Picasso’s Les Demoiselles d’Avignon? How about Pollock’s Lavender Mist? Kiefer’s To the Unknown Artist?
By the way, the modern fine art standard doesn’t shut out work by the likes of Leonardo, Michelangelo, or Rembrandt. The best work of all three constituted significant stylistic advances over what came before. Neither Leonardo or Michelangelo ever painted or sculpted pagan subjects as far as I know, but they certainly redefined Biblical subjects in terms of their aesthetic and their era im much the same way that I laud Dore for doing above. As for Rembrandt, he redefined the entire genre of portraiture.
The Mona Lisa looks different from other Renaissance-era portraits because it isn’t that kind of a portrait. It’s Leonardo’s treatment of what he sees as the ideal woman. (You’ll note, among other things, that she has no eyelashes or eyebrows.) Leonardo carried that painting with him and reworked it until he died. Incidentally, no one much cared about it until the Symbolist painters (an early modern fine-art movement) started kicking up a fuss about it as a poetic treatment of the feminine mystique in the late 19th century.
By the way, if you can’t make a qualitative distinction between the achievement of redefining the Bible for a culture and that of redefining Robert E. Howard stories for a culture, I don’t know what to say. That’s philistine in the extreme.
I’m not a snob on the subject of modern fine art and illustration. I like the best of both. But it’s like the relative appreciation one would give a good doctor and a good nurse. The good doctor is deservedly valued more.
Domingos–
I speak the language of the oppressor to undermine the oppressor. I find people of authority respect arguments they don’t agree with more if the argument is made on their own terms.
I actually haven’t said anything about the relative value of comics here. Personally, I see them as just as much an outgrowth of the single narrative image hitting the aesthetic wall as most modern painting styles. They revitalized the narrative image through the effects created by putting together multiple ones.
For my money, the best commercial illustrator of the 20th century (or at least the latter half) was Bob Peak.
Robert:
I didn’t say that you talked about comics when obviously you didn’t. I said that you used the *same rhetorical tricks* to bash illustration as comics haters used before the, by then, lowly art form got a better status as “the graphic novel.” What are these, then? You say that Picasso is a great artist (even if I prefer Francis Bacon I have no problems to say that he was the greatest artist of the 20th century, actually; Bacon agreed with me even if he didn’t understand all the fuss about “Guernica,” but I digress…). When I said that Picasso did illustrations you replied that his illos are not his best work; when I said that fine art illustrated the _Bible_ for centuries you said that religious painting is not illustration. See the reasoning here? X category is trash, single Y is good, hence Y can’t be part of X. Imagine the reverse reasoning: Painting is trash; Picasso is great; hence, Picasso can’t be a painter.
I thought that I’ve spared us long explanations by using the comparison, but I was wrong, sorry!…
Maybe you’re right about comics, but that happened way before Modern times. Maybe in Egipt, but I have a soft spot for Medieval comics:
http://www.cgalgarve.com/images/cantiga-p.jpg
I agree with Robert and Noah, re. Frazetta. A man who could paint as well as Goya (here’s another one who was a great illustrator) could only put his talent in the service of misogynistic adolescent male power fantasies. It was his right, of course. He earned heaps of money (but he could have earned heaps more) and he made his fans happy. Not many people can say the same thing, but still…
Robert Stanley Martin’s “Frazetta in Perspective” is nicely thought out, with some fascinating perceptions, of which this I consider the most striking:
—————-
I do think the romance and EC material holds greater artistic promise. My main reservation about Frazetta’s paintings, apart from a general antipathy to the sword-and-sorcery adventure material so many of them exemplified, is that even when the subjects are ostensibly original, they’re just him rehashing the entertainment of his youth: Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, 1930s monster movies. The romance and EC material, though, with their focus on the mundane, made him think outside his own box. They challenged him in a way the fantasy material never could, and he responded by bringing a delightfully fresh surface to what were otherwise some pretty humdrum stories.
—————–
However, there’s stuff to gripe about. (After writing the following, days after reading the initial piece, I noticed other responses had come in beyond Noah’s and Adrian’s first two…)
—————–
…the aspect of Frazetta’s art I find the most shocking is his fascination with executioners. The attitude behind it is about as anti-social as they come. In most cultures, the executioner is both a terrifying and pathetic figure. He’s terrifying because he has the state’s license to slaughter his fellow citizens (criminals, yes, but still), and his victims can do nothing to defend themselves. But he’s also pathetic: he does society’s dirtiest work for it, and his fellow citizens repay him with ostracism: he’s shunned in all his interactions with others. Most of Frazetta’s executioner scenes simply emphasize the former and ignore the latter. One would think that this is horrifying enough, but it’s nothing when one considers the images where he did confront the pathos. His response was to invert the executioner’s alienation from society into a romantic, self-reliant pose. I am writing, of course, of The Death Dealer (1973) and its affiliated paintings, in which Frazetta reimagined the executioner figure as a knight-errant. Is there anything more appalling in the arts than taking society’s disgust with itself and turning it into a heroic point of pride? And sadly, there is: The Death Dealer became probably its creator’s most famous and popular work.
—————–
Good-frickin’-lord. Despite his face not showing and wielding an axe (note he also sports a sword), “The Death Dealer” is not an executioner; he’s a warrior; helmeted rather than hooded. And how many executioners work on horseback, in an obvious battlefield?
Frazetta’s executioners are menacing, but often goony and potbellied, hardly romantic figures:
http://black-chapter.com/rankandfile/dark/images/Frank_frazetta_executioner_WEB.gif
http://www.bilderberg.org/frazetta.gif
1955′s “The Executioner,” scanned off my beloved copy of “The Fantastic Art of Frank Frazetta,” first book – far as I know – devoted to this master’s art:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7758/frazzettaexecutioner.jpg
Rather than a heroic individual, this executioner is a mere functionary, subservient to a decadent slob of a ruler…
——————-
In any case, when one goes through the more offensive tropes in Frazetta’s artwork, there are much bigger fish to fry. One is the rape imagery. A recurring scene in his art shows a subhuman creature — often a Neanderthal — carrying off one of Frazetta’s trademark half-naked Amazons over his shoulder, and with no salvation in sight.
——————–
Tch. Have you never seen a pulp magazine cover? Beauteous women being carried off by savages, monsters, aliens, even robots, were a routine image.
Surely the goofiest example of the last (I luv your art, Paul, but…):
http://www.darkinthedark.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wonder-stories-1933-03.jpg
It’s called “damsels in distress”; and more than indicating the artist catering to the audience’s wish to rape, torture, or run over with a train women, it’s more a catering to a rescue fantasy. That the overwhelmingly male readership can imagine themselves saving the lady, who then freely bestows amorous delights upon us as a reward.
Hm! Here’s one for gay SF fans: http://www.philippalmer.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Frank-R.-Paul-8.jpg
Now, let me read the newer comments:
——————–
R. Maheras says:
…I mean, yeah, his art generally did focus on the dark, the horrific and the fantastic. He obviously clicked with the writings of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs…
——————–
Don’t have the time to search for the quote, but in one Frazetta interview, when asked about his early (and quite nice) “funny animal” comics work, Frazetta astoundingly said that if it had proved commercially successful, he would have been fine with drawing that stuff for the rest of his life!
———————
Robert Stanley Martin says:
…As for Thun’da, the most offensive aspect of it, as I recall, was Frazetta’s cover for the 1952 edition. (Those curious should click here [ http://www.comics.org/issue/10180/cover/4/ ].) Fantagraphics wisely avoided using it when they reprinted it in 1987. It’s really foul.
———————-
Haw! “Storm Saxon Goes To Africa!”
Looking for a photo of filed-teeth Africans, ran across this – http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/30/article-1224189-06EF1AFB000005DC-517_468x312.jpg – and the tragic story of this young Pygmy, featured in a “human zoo”: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224189/Caged-human-zoo-The-shocking-story-young-pygmy-warrior-monkey-house–fuelled-Hitlers-twisted-beliefs.html .
BTW, here’s Frazetta’s “White Man’s Wet Dream”: http://www.marksverylarge.com/images/7104cover_l.jpg (Um, gee, I never noticed that snake before…)
———————
Domingos Isabelinho says:
…A man who could paint as well as Goya (here’s another one who was a great illustrator) could only put his talent in the service of misogynistic adolescent male power fantasies. It was his right, of course. He earned heaps of money (but he could have earned heaps more) and he made his fans happy. Not many people can say the same thing, but still
———————-
Technical skill aside, it takes wisdom to “paint as well as Goya”; the ability to understand life and the Human Condition in more than simplistic terms. Which is what made Rembrandt great: he could see God in the carcass of a slaughtered ox, and make us see Him, too…
For all his admirable qualities, Frazetta hardly strikes one as a Deep Thinker…
Since my essay has garnered comment, I thought I’d weigh in.
Noah — I never claimed Frazetta’s work is positive for women. I merely quoted a woman who found it encouraging, without comment. (For the record, it was because I found her remarks interesting.) Nor did I say it “does something worthwhile with race,” if by that you meant that it promotes interracial harmony. I pointed out that he mixed ethnicities in a way that cleverly retained the appeal of the exotic without inviting zenophobia — a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too for potentially narrow-minded viewers.
Robert — Frazetta had no “fascination with executioners.” I can only recall 4 examples of (hooded, ax-wielding) executioners in all of Frazetta’s drawings and paintings — an average of less than one per decade. He painted plenty of killers, but few of the state-sanctioned sort that you describe.
Your “main reservation about Frazetta’s paintings,” that “they’re just him rehashing the entertainment of his youth—Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, 1930s monster movies,” also seems misinformed. I don’t recall Frazetta expressing a boyhood affinity for Burroughs, except for the Tarzan stuff (and then maybe only Foster’s strips), and he probably didn’t encounter Robert E. Howard until he was in his thirties. (Until then, Howard’s stories were buried in back issues of pulp mags from before Frazetta’s time, and in a couple of obscure reprints. Frazetta denied reading them.) Aside from King Kong, which Frazetta did favor, 1930s monsters show up rarely in his paintings (I can think of maybe four instances), and I don’t recall him citing such films as an early influence. So rest assured: you may enjoy his work without worrying that he liked such things as a boy.
Your notion that conventional romance stories held “greater artistic promise” than anything else Frazetta tackled is incredibly counter-intuitive, and requires more explanation than your essay offers.
You claim Frazetta’s paintings betray insecurities about what they celebrate, but this is too facile a diagnosis without further argument. One could as easily argue that every painting ever done represents insecurity about what it celebrates. “Vermeer celebrated the indoors because he was agoraphobic, Monet celebrated the the countryside because was misanthropic, Nagel celebrated pale skin because feared melanoma.” All possible explanations, but hardly conclusive.
Concerning the comparison of fine art (by which I assume you mean gallery art?) and illustration, you write:
“The development of an idiosyncratic visual vocabulary and audience-challenging techniques replaced classical technical skills as the criteria by which new artists were evaluated.”
The question is whether that replacement was justified. Is there any reason we should prefer innovation to conventional skill? Is Liefeld better than Foster because his work is more idiosyncratic?
I prefer to think fidelity to one’s vision is paramount, whether that entails a new approach or a mastery of the old.
Hey Jesse. Thanks for commenting.
By “worthwhile” I meant interesting and/or thoughtful, not necessarily promoting racial harmony. I find the blending of racial features you talk about a fairly standard-issue and even cowardly exoticism, not at all something to be celebrated or singled out for praise. Similarly, it seems like it’s worth noting, if you’re going to talk about gender in Frazetta, that there are less positive ways to look at his take than the one you highlighted.
“You claim Frazetta’s paintings betray insecurities about what they celebrate, but this is too facile a diagnosis without further argument. ”
Frazetta’s paintings are hyperbolic power fantasies aimed at adolescent males. it hardly seems radical to suggest that they are dealing with insecurities. And yeah, I think the Impressionist celebration of the countryside had a lot to do with insecurities about urbanization, too. Vermeer wasn’t actually celebrating the indoors, I don’t think; he was celebrating physicality and tangibility, which could pretty easily be related to desires and insecurities about a growing capitalist culture. And if you think there’s no insecurity in Nagel’s work…well, I’ve got some Andrea Dworkin for you to read.
“The question is whether that replacement was justified. Is there any reason we should prefer innovation to conventional skill? Is Liefeld better than Foster because his work is more idiosyncratic?”
There’s a difference between idiosyncrasy (an identifiable style) and innovation, though. Foster’s choices of narrative subject and the relationship he set up between image and text is actually much more innovative than Liefeld, I think.
One interesting thing about the switch to modernism that Robert points out is that, as I sort of said earlier, the impetus for that change was in a lot of ways Japanisme. Japanese prints, or illustrations, were hugely important to the modernist turn away from classical rigor — arguably more important than the much lauded development of photography. Illustration thus became a hugely important part of the Western visual art tradition at the same time as commercial illustration was in some ways being excluded from that tradition.
It’s also worth pointing out that Russ was right when he said earlier that art as this point is Catholic enough to embrace someone like Frazetta, or commercial illustration in general. There’s various internecine squabbles, of course, but I don’t see any reason why a museum or gallery wouldn’t have a Frazetta retrospective. Surely many have.
Dunno about museums featuring a Frazetta retrospective, but some’ve had Norman Rockwell shows, which have attracted huge crowds, even while eyes rolled at the Fine Arts crowd over the “dumbing down” of museum offerings.
Oh, and here’s Frazetta’s cover for ERB’s “The Mucker”:
http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/fantasy/images/FrankFrazetta-The-Mucker-DateUnknown.jpg
Would-be rapist or rescuer? [i]You decide![/i]
That’s a rescuer, but that’s equally misogynistic: stupid, powerless, women can only get in trouble and here comes the hero to save the day.
Oh and, yes, a dumbing down it is…
Domingos — Underestimating women is as misogynistic as wanting to rape them?
Noah — Blending racial features was hardly standard-issue before Frazetta. (Offhand, I can’t recall a single example.) Whether his approach was moral or not is irrelevant to my point; it was clever.
There are certainly less positive responses to Frazetta’s women than that anorexia quote I cited, but most of those are more obvious and therefore less interesting.
Your insistence on casting every artistic impulse in terms of insecurity is unduly narrow. Insecurity is only one of countless possible artistic motives. It’s difficult to picture Vermeer painting household interiors because he was worried about “a growing capitalist culture.” (?!) More likely, he preferred being able to arrange pictured elements to his liking (easier in a house than in a forest), or objected to coping with weather and bugs while he worked, or was attracted to the household’s distinctive charms. Similarly, Frazetta may have painted worshipful women because, as a handsome, athletic alpha-male, that was simply how he saw them. I’m not saying he did see them that way, but that theory requires less argument than the theory that he was trying to quell fears which we don’t even know he had.
Foster’s choices of narrative subject, and the relationship he set up between image and text, were not innovative at all. Heroic fantasy is as old as the hills, and storybooks and early comics had used captioned illustrations for decades before Foster (as in this 19th century example). His subject, his narrative technique, and his drawing style were all conventional. By contrast, Liefeld’s approach to rendering, body proportions, and even storytelling was a marked departure from the more staid approach favored by the mainstream until the mid-’80s. (Before Liefeld, had anyone drawn a double-page spread of characters sitting? How about an aerial view of Manhattan with no buildings in the background?)
Other instances abound. Outcault created the first dialogue/picture interdependence, but he’s a worse cartoonist than numerous greats who didn’t create any major techniques. Siegel and Shuster created the superhero genre, but produced nothing to rival the genre’s best examples. The earliest undergrounds weren’t as good as Crumb’s undergrounds. Etc. Even within an artist’s own oeuvre, one can find innovations that lack the power of his less innovative works. Innovation is only valuable in the service of the greater goal of communicating one’s personal vision, and often isn’t necessary at that. Skill isn’t very valuable for its own sake, but is usually necessary to effectively communicate a personal vision.
I didn’t say that insecurity was the only way to see those artists work. I simply said, contra your contention, that it was a possible and reasonable way to look at all of those artists — and certainly at Frazetta as well.
” It’s difficult to picture Vermeer painting household interiors because he was worried about “a growing capitalist culture.””
Why is this difficult? Read some John Berger. This is hardly a novel thesis.
You may well be right that Liefeld was more original than Foster. I’m not a huge aficianado of either of them, so I’ll defer to your greater knowledge.
I disagree that personal vision is always and everywhere the best judge of aesthetic success though. That’s a fairly romantic view, and there are various alternatives.
Robert wrote: “One all but never sees innovative visual techniques emerge from the field of illustration. Even the most technically fanciful illustration work (such as Bob Peak’s) invariably makes derivative use of approaches that come out of the fine-art context.”
That’s a weak argument, and here’s why: The overwhelming majority of material that art scholars cite as fine art is derivative. For example, one can argue that Michelangelo’s sculptures and architecture are nothing more than polished derivatives of classical Roman and Greek works. Point of fact: Michelangelo’s iconic “David” statue bears a close resemblance in pose and style to Polykleitos’ “Doryphoros,” carved nearly 2,000 years earlier. In another example, while the work of, say, the first impressionist (Charles-Francis Daubigny?) was original, the work of those who followed – regardless of the direction they took the new form – was, for all intents and purpose, derivative. And can any cartoonist aficionado honestly argue that the fine art world’s much ballyhooed Roy Lichtenstein’s work is not blatantly derivative of the work of those pesky low-brow comics “illustrators?”
Robert wrote: “I get the distinct sense from reading your responses that you feel art should be evaluated according to a Platonic set of rules that revolve around mastery of classical skills. Modern art doesn’t play by that criteria. The modern artist’s challenge is to create his or her own skills.”
No, I don’t think that the only true fine artist is the classically-trained variety. My argument is that when the Modern Art folks kicked down the door and threw away the rules of the old-school regime, they kept the same exclusionary disdain for the folks their predecessors had labeled as “illustrators.” In short, when the modern art “slaves” overthrew their classical art “masters,” they obviously felt after the revolution was over that it was still OK to keep artists like the lower-class “illustrators” safely in the back of the bus.
Robert wrote: “I also get the feeling that you’ve never really engaged with work from the Impressionist period on. (To be blunt, it’s my sense you’ve never studied art history at all.) Can you say why Van Gogh’s Night Cafe is considered a great painting? Or Picasso’s Les Demoiselles d’Avignon? How about Pollock’s Lavender Mist? Kiefer’s To the Unknown Artist?”
For the sake of argument, let’s say I don’t know anything about the history of art, its nuances, and its endless battles between various schools of thought. Does that invalidate my opinion that Frazetta’s best work is worthy of equal consideration and status as other mainstream works of the art world? After all, one doesn’t need a PhD in film to appreciate the merits of “Citizen Kane” or “The Maltese Falcon.”
Robert wrote: “Neither Leonardo or Michelangelo ever painted or sculpted pagan subjects as far as I know, but they certainly redefined Biblical subjects in terms of their aesthetic and their era im much the same way that I laud Dore for doing above. As for Rembrandt, he redefined the entire genre of portraiture.”
I don’t know about da Vinci, but Michelangelo sculpted/drew pagan subjects. Such works include “Battle of the Centaurs,” “Bacchus,” “Venus and Cupid,” “Leda and the Swan,” and “Charon.” There may very well have been others, but these are just the ones I’m aware of.
Regarding Rembrandt, re-defining portraiture does not make portraiture any less derivative.
Robert wrote: “By the way, if you can’t make a qualitative distinction between the achievement of redefining the Bible for a culture and that of redefining Robert E. Howard stories for a culture, I don’t know what to say. That’s philistine in the extreme.”
As I stated above, source material does not a work-of-art make. There are plenty of Biblical-related works of art from the Renaissance and other eras that, quite simply, suck.
“Underestimating women is as misogynistic as wanting to rape them?”
Yes. One is just violent and the other isn’t. Violent misogyny is demonstrably worse than non-violent misogyny, but because violence is demonstrably worse than non-violence, not because being non-violent makes the misogyny better.
That’s an elegant formulation Caro.
Russ, I think your right that focusing on derivativeness may not be especially helpful. I do think that there’s a lack of conceptual there there in Frazetta which makes it difficult for me to enjoy his work wholeheartedly. The pulp tropes he used really aren’t as thoughtful or as meaningful (philosophically or culturally) as Biblical or classical materials, and he doesn’t seem to have done a whole lot with them beyond that…even compared to somebody like Berni Wrightson, say. Even Norman Rockwell seems like he had more of an individual vision or perspective. If you compare Frazetta to somebody like El Greco or Beardsley, the conceptual gap becomes a chasm.
Mike Hunter- Dunno about museums featuring a Frazetta retrospective, but some’ve had Norman Rockwell shows, which have attracted huge crowds, even while eyes rolled at the Fine Arts crowd over the “dumbing down” of museum offerings.
It seems to me that the majority of comments from the art press concerning Rockwell in recent years has been pretty even handed. Very much like Domingos original comment- a lot of Rockwell is kitsch, but he does have some worthwhile paintings. It seems to me the “eye rolling” is not as pronounced as in previous decades.
Thanks Caro!
Re. Vermeer, I’m quite sure that, even if he didn’t intended it that way, there’s a Feminist reading of his paintings. Interiors are the places where women live (they’re trapped there), they can only communicate with the outside world through letters: http://tinyurl.com/2v6uozt (behind her is a painting representing the finding of Moses; maybe she wanted to be rescued?); http://tinyurl.com/36l3ujq (we look through the door as if we are spying; she’s receiving a love letter). When men visit they don’t have the best intentions: http://tinyurl.com/33o34bs
I’ve got to get to work on some other things, so I’m not likely to be contributing more to this thread after this comment. However, I do want to address Russ’s reply before departing the ship.
I don’t think anyone’s claimed that an artist has to treat everything that has come before with disdain, or that any artist isn’t building on the works of predecessors. Jackson Pollock, for instance, isn’t a surrealist painter in the sense that Miro is, but surrealism certainly contributed to the foundation that made his great drip paintings possible. Even in the so-called anarchy of the modern-art world, everything you see, at least in retrospect, is a fairly clear development from work that has come before. What’s demanded is that the artist build on the work of predecessors in a significant way. The David is a considerably more sophisticated piece of work than the Doryphoros. And Rembrandt’s emotional incisiveness and powers of characterization are far beyond what had been seen in portraiture before him. What the modern-art aesthetic says is that while Rembrandt is great, there’s not much value in simply rehashing his solutions and techniques.
Another thing that needs to be emphasized is that what ultimately makes art great is that it exemplifies the sociocultural moment in which it was produced. That’s why there’s no controversy over the basic question of the greatness of Michelangelo or Rembrandt. Their sociocultural moment is far removed from our own, and the question of how much they exemplify the cultural context in which they produced their work is one that can be fairly objectively answered. The popularity of a given artist or work can (and does) change, but those shifts are indicative of the values of the sociocultural moment in which they occur, not the underlying greatness of the artist or work.
The basic argument Russ and I are having is about contemporary work. The problem with assessing work over the last century or so is that we’re so close to it in sociocultural terms that it’s impossible to see it objectively. We’re human, though–all hubris and striving–so we try to come up with ways of speeding history up. The measure I’ve presented is the establishment one that guides the present organization of museums and art history textbooks and courses. As for Russ’s measure, I’ll leave it to him to define. Anyone reading this may agree with one of us, or neither, or agree with some aspects of what Russ is saying and I’m saying and reject others. It will eventually get sorted out, although I can promise we’ll all be dead before that happens.
Now let me put my polemical hat back on. Here comes the snottiness:
Russ, if you’re going to claim, at least hypothetically, that Frazetta’s work is equal to or better than, say, either Rothko’s or Johns’, it would really help your argument if you could articulate the latter artists’ achievement, even if it’s only to dismiss it. If someone was to claim that, for example, Top Gun was aesthetically equal or superior to Citizen Kane, but they couldn’t explain why Citizen Kane was a great film, why should anyone care what that person thinks? He or she is entitled to their taste, but, beyond that, that person is displaying an inability to assess the merits or flaws of either film, and isn’t worth taking seriously.
With Russ’s list of Michelangelo’s pagan works, there’s a lot less than meets the eye.
Battle of the Centaurs is a relief sculpture Michelangelo did at the age of 17 and never completed. And one is pretty hard-pressed to find anything particularly pagan about it except the title–it just looks like a bunch of battling human figures. However, if you look really, really closely, you will see a horse’s foreleg in one spot. Yes, the subject is a pagan one, but obviously Michelangelo was looking to minimize those origins as much as he could.
Which brings us to the Bacchus, in which Michelangelo depicts the Greek god of wine as a staggering drunk. It’s fairly obviously a statement of contempt for pagan subjects. A similar piece is Manet’s Olympia, which sneered at salon painters’ constant regurgitation of the reclining Venus image. If I recall correctly, the patron who commissioned this one from Michelangelo was so pissed off by it that he demanded and got his money back.
Venus and Cupid. This was a sketchbook piece that a later artist used as the basis for a painting. I think sketchbook work is largely negligible, at least in Michelangelo’s case. However, I should note that Venus and Cupid were common, codified tropes among Florentine Renaissance artists for the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus. Go read any halfway decent discussion of Botticelli for the lowdown.
Leda and the Swan is a lost painting that is generally believed to have been destroyed by Michelangelo himself. We only know it from a copy another artist produced. Again, it supports the view that Michelangelo generally held pagan subject matter in contempt. At the very least, he didn’t want to be identified with it.
Charon is a pagan figure that has been completely appropriated by Christianity. The credit goes to Dante, who portrayed Charon as the ferryman of Hell in The Divine Comedy, written over 150 years before Michelangelo was born and the greatest literary work of Italy. (Among other things, it was responsible for the Tuscan dialect becoming the national language.) Neither Michelangelo nor the Church saw Charon as a pagan figure when he included him in The Last Judgment fresco, and neither should anyone else.
I know there were any number of tenth-rate Renaissance painters producing Biblical material. I thought we were talking about Frazetta’s achievements relative to Michelangelo’s and Leonardo’s, not their hack contemporaries.
Oh, as for your reference to Lichtenstein’s comics paintings, that work is valued as a metaphrastic commentary on contemporary culture. No one’s acclaiming him for those images outside of that context, any more than anyone’s acclaiming Warhol for his skill in painting Campbell’s soup cans. Any boob who does that deserves to be slapped down.
Noah,
I didn’t deny that insecurity was a possible impetus for Frazetta and others; in fact I explicitly and repeatedly called it possible. I denied that it was the most plausible explanation and that it should be asserted without argument.
Caro, I see no reason to equate malice with well-intentioned ignorance.
Robert,
Your essay was based largely on false premises (executioners, rape fantasy, Frazetta’s childhood enthusiasms) and odd assertions (romance comics, insecurity), and your arguments to Russ are leaking like a sieve. No wonder you suddenly have better things to do than discuss your own piece.
You challenged Russ to articulate certain modern artists’ greatness, but it’s a false challenge. There are as many opinions on why Rothko was good as there are critics; what are the odds that Russ would articulate one you favor? You can’t even settle on one standard of greatness yourself.
Earlier you said that the best art is “defined as the most innovative.” Now you claim that great art is that which “exemplifies the sociocultural movement in which it was produced.” These are two different standards, both untenable. I addressed your prior standard earlier. Your latest standard would neatly condemn any artist who was ahead of his time (i.e., an innovator), or who stands apart from it, while commending mediocrities who merely exemplify it (Patrick Nagel again rears his pale head). What distinguishes Rembrandt and Michelangelo from their peers is not that they were the most representative of their time (were they?), but that they were better at communicating their vision. Michelangelo’s David represents no conceptual innovation over the Doryphoros, nor does it better exemplify his culture than the latter exemplified Ancient Greece. It’s simply a more skillful and therefore clearer portrait of a male ideal.
Also, if it’s “impossible” to see the past century’s work objectively (as you claim), then there’s no way Russ could offer you an objective assessment of Rothko et al. You might as well quiz a sommelier about last week’s grape juice. (However, that you bothered to write about Frazetta suggests that not even you subscribe to this theory of a cultural wine barrel.)
You earlier accused Russ of never having studied art history. Later, when he refuted your claim that Michelangelo never painted or sculpted pagan subjects, you continued to bring the snottiness, even while trying to paper over this example of his superior knowledge. (I’m picturing a frantic trip to Wikipedia to look up Russ’s list of pagan works.) Man up and practice some humility.
Oh come on Jesse. It’s fairly clear from Robert’s discussion here that he’s got a very firm grasp of classical artwork. His argument may or may not be effective, but suggesting that he scurried to Wikipedia is silly. It just makes you look like you’ve lost your temper.
Caro wasn’t equating malice with well-intentioned ignorance. She was equating misogyny with misogyny. Which seems fair, yes?
I do agree with you that I don’t find Robert’s definitions of great art tenable. In general, generalizations about what is great art are very hard to make stick I think; it’s better to focus on particular cases (which is why I think your own “personal vision” argument doesn’t really work either.) So, in terms of particular cases — can you or Russ articulate what Frazetta is doing conceptually that you feel makes him a great artist? Your own essay focused almost entirely on formal issues — and to the extent that you seemed to bring up conceptual matters (gender, race), you basically disavowed them in the comments here. So is there anything that Frazetta is doing conceptually that you’re willing to say is worthwhile, intelligent, moving, powerful, or etc.? Or is your interest in him based entirely on formal issues? And, more broadly, do you in general respond to art on a conceptual level? Or are formal issues paramount for you (your discussion here suggests that that may be the case, but I could be misreading.)
http://aaeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/DarTarusFrazetta.png
Misogyny or vision of female empowerment? You decide!
(“Sexiest Mohel Ever!”)
No reason it can’t be both.
Maybe, but I would go for the first hypothesis. If a man (meaning: the reader here, not that unfortunate guy in the picture) pays the services of a dominatrix, she’s not empowered, at all, she’s her servant…
On the other hand I can’t understand her garb: is she supposed to be a high priestess (or something…) doing a human sacrifice or did she dress like that to go to the beach? Maybe she intended the latter, but was called in a hurry to perform the former?
Oh, my.
It wasn’t my intention to ignore you, Jesse. Sorry to see you’re so upset.
By the way, I really enjoyed your piece on Frazetta’s techniques and skills. I wish my own piece had been as good.
That said, I must take issue with much of what you say about my piece and my responses to commenters, particularly Russ Maheras. Let’s take it in order, shall we?
First of all, I’m not running from a fight. I’m usually fairly sick of a subject when I’m done writing about it. (The finished Frazetta piece was actually my third effort after two abandoned drafts.) I also had more commissioned work, as well as personal pieces, that I was eager to get to. But, as tired as I am of discussing Frazetta, I will respond to the issues you raise.
I don’t think Frazetta was fascinated by the executioner figure to the degree he was by women with ample backsides, but by your own acknowledgement he revisited the image several times and released at least some of those pictures for public consumption. He not only found the image intriguing, he wanted people to know he found it intriguing. The Death Dealer figure has a number of visual traits in common with the executioner, which leads me to believe the painting was a development from that imagery. I’m also trying to account for the fact that many people find that image horrific in a way that doesn’t extend to other, even more violent Frazetta pieces. (I think a good deal of its appeal back in the ‘70s was that teenage boys instinctively knew it would shock their mothers like no other poster they could buy.) However, I grant my interpretation is an intuitive conclusion on my part, and I don’t have any significant argument with anyone whose view is different. I just ask that they respect my right to my interpretation as much as I respect their right to theirs.
As for the question of Frazetta’s rape fantasy images, I refer readers to his painting Captive Princess (click here) and note that its basic scenario was repeated in several other paintings, drawings, and doodles that Frazetta, again, released for public consumption throughout his career. All show women being carried off against her will or otherwise beset upon by a subhuman, animalistic male whose interest, one infers, is sexual. A good number of those images, like Captive Princess, feature no rescuer figure. The scenario depicted is a prelude to a rape. Anyone who can’t see that is in denial.
My view of Frazetta’s boyhood reading and movie enthusiasms is extrapolated from, one, the fact that imagery from them shows up in his work as early as the 1940s, and two, this material was extremely popular among boys his age back then. (The one exception is Robert E. Howard’s work, which, as you say, was fairly obscure.) Frazetta contemporaries like Gil Kane, Joe Kubert, and Al Williamson are on the record as having grown up adoring at least some—if not all—of this material. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that Frazetta shared their interest.
You point to Frazetta’s interviews in support of your claim that he wasn’t interested in this stuff. As someone who is familiar with several Frazetta interviews, I have to say that anyone who takes him at face value on much of anything is very gullible. The general impression he gives is that of a self-aggrandizing blowhard who has a new whopper to tell about himself every minute or so. You will note that, in Gary Groth’s interview, he belittles everyone who ever taught him anything, to the extent he acknowledges them at all. He comes across as positively desperate for people to think that his abilities manifested themselves full-blown, and that he never had to work hard to get the results he did. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least that he might deny interest in a book or movie that shaped him. Authors and artists with considerably less egotism have certainly done similarly. I’m not saying he’s lying, by the way. I’m just saying I don’t think he’s particularly reliable on the subject of himself. As it stands, he definitely did build a career around rehashing kitsch adventure and horror material from his boyhood, whether he was into it back then or not.
If you don’t consider romantic power fantasies inverted expressions of insecurity, how do you interpret the resonance of Frazetta’s heroic adventure paintings, particularly given their widespread geek appeal?
I’m not asking Russ or anyone else for an objective judgment of Rothko or other modern fine artists. I’d just like to see a thoughtful take on the aesthetic appeal of the work. As it stands, I get the feeling you and Russ are both terrified of discussing these efforts at all. Every time I try to steer Russ into dealing with modern fine artists—i.e., Frazetta’s art-world contemporaries—he runs away and refers back to work that was done centuries ago. You fling a lot of incoherent bluster about how it’s not worth doing because I might disagree with what is written or because all value is relative or whatever. Why don’t you and Russ just man up and take a stab at it?
When I used the word exemplify, I didn’t mean it in the sense of being typical. I meant it in the sense of being an exemplar, i.e. the highest example. My usage was a tad sloppy, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. I think we can agree that Michelangelo and Leonardo were exemplary figures of the Italian Renaissance. For many people, if you just say the word “renaissance,” their names are the first two things that come to mind.
I wrote that, in the long run, work is considered great because it is an exemplar of the time and place—the culture—in which it was produced. When it comes to work of the last century, we don’t have the distance to make an assessment of that sort. In order to compensate, critics and scholars have tried to come up with an organizing aesthetic with which to evaluate the work. The prevailing one is based on innovative value, which has also proven applicable to the historically great work as well. There are two standards: one for work that time has given enough perspective on to make a reasonably objective judgment, and one for more recent work for which that kind of objectivity is fairly impossible.
Um, Russ acknowledges that he’s never studied art history. As for his examples of Michelangelo’s pagan work, we’re not talking about anything even begins to approach the level or the renown of the Pietá, the David, or the Sistine Chapel ceiling. In my own defense, please pardon them slipping my mind.
As for my own taste, I like work from a lot of different spheres. However, I consider work I like and work I consider best somewhat different things. My favorite movie of all time is The Fabulous Baker Boys, but I wouldn’t think of arguing that it’s a better film than Citizen Kane or even Do the Right Thing, which was probably the best film of the year (1989) The Fabulous Baker Boys came out. I like some of Frazetta’s work quite a lot, but I don’t think any of it is as impressive conceptually or execution-wise as the best work of his fine-art contemporaries like Pollock, Johns, or Rauschenberg. By the same token, I like the food at both Le Cirque and Denny’s, but I would never put the latter on a par with the former.
Mike–
That sacrifice picture looks like just another variation on the executioner theme. Only this time it’s a half-naked babe with a dagger instead of a big black-garbed guy with his face covered wielding an axe.
To not take Robert’s remarks in order:
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
…I’m not asking Russ or anyone else for an objective judgment of Rothko or other modern fine artists. I’d just like to see a thoughtful take on the aesthetic appeal of the work…
…I like some of Frazetta’s work quite a lot, but I don’t think any of it is as impressive conceptually or execution-wise as the best work of his fine-art contemporaries like Pollock, Johns, or Rauschenberg…
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Good grief, absolutely not. I certainly enjoy Frazetta’s work, admire it for what it is (and have probably close to ten books of his art to prove it), but he’s not remotely in those guys’ league, intellectually or imaginatively. (“Imaginatively” not in the sense of inventiveness in conjuring up exotic creatures, costumes, and settings, but of doing new things with the art form.)
Not that I’m particularly fond of Pollock, Johns, or Rauschenberg; but it’s (or should be) apparent even for a non-expert that their work is as aesthetically/intellectually above Frazetta’s as, say, James Joyce’s is above Ian Fleming’s.
To my comment that “some [museums have] had Norman Rockwell shows, which have attracted huge crowds, even while eyes rolled at the Fine Arts crowd over the “dumbing down” of museum offerings,” Domingos replied, “Oh and, yes, a dumbing down it is…”
To which I’d say, if the museum curators maintained that Rockwell was as great as their usual “fine arts” offerings, indeed it would be a dumbing-down; a diminution of the definition of what is considered great art.
But if they made no such inflated claims – as Rockwell was either honest or astute enough to avoid – why should the excellent exhibition spaces of an art museum not occasionally host shows of work such as, say, pulp magazine cover paintings? Which may hardly climb the heights, yet have their own appeal and aesthetic qualities?
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…My usage was a tad sloppy, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. I think we can agree that Michelangelo and Leonardo were exemplary figures of the Italian Renaissance. For many people, if you just say the word “renaissance,” their names are the first two things that come to mind.
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I would imagine the reason folks bring up these Old Masters is that, conceptually, they’re not gulfs apart from Frazetta, unlike the aforementioned “Murderers’ Row” of modernism.
However, alas, to me all this comparison does is point out ever more clearly how intellectually and emotionally shallow, lacking in wisdom or understanding of the Human Condition, simplistic (even if dramatically effective) in its visual effects, Frazetta is in comparison.
For instance, on the subject of depictions of violence, consider Goya’s “The Disasters of War,” with its harrowing, moving, gruesome, inspiring look at the panoply of human behavior that conflict can inspire.
What does Frazetta say on the subject, beyond “it’s good to be a badass”?
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I wrote that, in the long run, work is considered great because it is an exemplar of the time and place—the culture—in which it was produced.
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Ah, no, I don’t think so. How much great art and literature was rejected, attacked, mocked in its own time – because it was so outrageous in comparison, precedent-breaking (i.e., Van Gogh, Rodin’s later work, “Ulysses”) – for not being such an “exemplar”? And how many which were considered the finest in their own times are now looked down upon as dusty mediocrities?
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(From Dictionary.com)
exemplar
1. a model or pattern to be copied or imitated: Washington is the exemplar of patriotic virtue.
2. a typical example or instance.
3. an original or archetype: Plato thought nature but a copy of ideal exemplars.
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————————
When it comes to work of the last century, we don’t have the distance to make an assessment of that sort. In order to compensate, critics and scholars have tried to come up with an organizing aesthetic with which to evaluate the work. The prevailing one is based on innovative value, which has also proven applicable to the historically great work as well. There are two standards: one for work that time has given enough perspective on to make a reasonably objective judgment, and one for more recent work for which that kind of objectivity is fairly impossible.
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I don’t think that the Old Masters were great for being innovative, though indeed some were. Their qualities were stronger in other areas.
I disagree that – necessarily – “for more recent work…that kind of objectivity is fairly impossible.” Frazetta’s work is hardly such astonishingly outré fare that our culture-bound minds have difficulty dealing with it, unlike, say, those flabbergasted audience at the first performance of “Ubu Roi.”
Frazetta was a great fantasy illustrator, right up there with Dulac, Rackham, N.C. Wyeth. We should all be lucky enough to merit being ranked in such company!
To claim depth and complexity in his work which it does not have, does not aim for (indeed, in illustration such would be counterproductive) does his considerable achievements a disservice.
On that “fine art versus illustration” bit:
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R. Maheras says:
…historically, when fine art world folks pooh-pooh “illustration” (which includes comics, pulp art paintings, and other popular culture renderings) as some lesser form of art (if they even classify it as art at all), their usual rationale centers upon these basic tenets: Illustrations are creations done quickly, for pay, for a mass audience.
When I skewered such logic, I used a fine art icon: Rembrandt.
At times, Rembrandt worked very fast; he usually painted for money; and sometimes, he did paintings for public display which, at the time, arguably reached hundreds or even thousands — a substantial audience in an era when mass communication was in its infancy.
I think I also cited Michelangelo, who did a huge amount of commissioned work for the church — work that was seen regularly by commoner and royalty alike….
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Alex Buchet says:
Dürer and Da Vinci also did not disdain illustration.
Closer to our time, recall the beautiful posters that Manet drew for Le Chat Noir and other cabarets.
———————–
Can we consider that, as culture increasingly became “dumbed down,” with art not commissioned by an educated, aristocratic elite to cater to the highest tastes (and reflect their own sophistication to their peers), but by art directors, to cater in the most simplistic fashion to the common herd, that the more “fine arts” qualities of illustration would likewise decline?
I’ve been a subscriber to the excellent “Illustration” magazine ( http://www.illustration-magazine.com/ ) for years, and delightful though its offerings are, depth and complexity in emotion, philosophy, understanding of human psychology, or aesthetic innovation are utterly lacking.
(Great eye-candy, though…!)
That’s nicely put Mike.
I don’t entirely agree with everything — I agree with your assessment of Frazetta, but I don’t know that I’d say that, say, Pollock is necessarily better. I’m not a huge fan of Pollock’s, and I think the Ab-Ex philosophy/ideology/whatever in general is kind of dumb. There are some Pollock paintings I like a lot, and some Frazetta paintings I like a lot, but I don’t find the intellectual content of either especially thoughtful — and they’re both kind of one-trick ponies in a lot of ways.
They’re actually kind of similar figures, even down to the fetishization of a certain kind of masculine swagger and virility, and the way they’re work is about tactility and motion. Pollock is obviously more inventive and original, and I probably like his best paintings more than I like Frazetta’s best — but on the other hand, Pollock is really, really pretentious, in a way that I find fairly irritating.
I guess the point for me is that it’s not necessarily wrong, or detrimental to illustration, to put it next to modernist masters. Modernism isn’t always better than illustration, at least for me. Similarly, while I like Joyce okay, I’d argue for the much pulpier C.S. Lewis as a greater artist. But Wallace Stevens is better than Dr. Seuss, great as the latter is. It just all depends. I’d rather make these judgments on a case by case basis, rather than categorically resign illustration or pulp (or high art) to lesser status.
Noah:
You’re judging the man, Pollock, according to a pop myth’s vision. I can’t see any of that masculinity you talk about in his paintings. Pollock’s painting is about Hermes Trismegistus dictum “That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below” (or, put in a simpler way: “as above so below”) as read from an American (Dineh) point of view.
This doesn’t mean that other readings of Pollock’s oeuvre aren’t possible, of course. This one, taken from Tony Smith’s church that never existed, is the one that I prefer though…
It’s about violent self-expression as spurting fluid. It just seems very strongly gendered to me, without being especially thoughtful about it (as with Frazetta.)
A Freudian interpretation, then? That’s OK, fair enough…
Here’s Tony Smith’s church, by the way:
http://tinyurl.com/34me8kl
Pollock’s drip canvases as stained sheets? Now there’s a thought, although I’m not sure how much further I want to go with it.
I don’t think gendered interpretation necessarily has to be Fruedian per se. Kristeva might be a better touchstone here for example (though obviously she’s influenced by Frued.)
In any case — surely I’m not the only one who’s thought of this?
In fact, I know I’m not, because some of Pollock’s take his innovations places that are, shall we say, more explicit. Andres Serrano is kind of the obvious example with his ejaculation photographs — but maybe a better example is the wonderful work of Paul Nudd. Paul’s a well-established gallery artist (and a friend); I think you could definitely see his work as taking ab-ex and elaborating its gendered implications (via horror film, feminist performance art, and underground comics, among other possible influences.)
Have you ever read the bits in Warhol’s Popism where Larry Rivers is talking about Pollock and how macho the abstract expressionsts were? “The toughness was part of a tradition, it went with their anguished, agonized art. They were always exploding and having fist fights about their work and their love lives.”
The whole section is especially interesting in light of this conversation because apparently the three reasons the abstract expressionists didn’t like Warhol was that he a) was too swish, b) collected art (which serious artists didn’t do) and c) was a “famous and award-winning” commercial artist.
Point being, Noah, that you’re not the first one who has thought of this. :)
The bit I quoted is actually Warhol, not Rivers. Rivers is quoted as saying Pollock was “a real jerk, very unpleasant to be around. Very stupid.”
I knew I wasn’t. That’s hysterical.
Warhol is categorically cooler than the ab-ex guys. Also more influential. And better.
Pop hasn’t had much influence on this comments thread, though, LOL. Here are Alison and Peter Smithson, writing in 1956:
“Traditionally the fine arts depend on the popular arts for their vitality, and the popular arts depend on the fine arts for the respectability.
[Big Snip]
“Advertising has caused a revolution in the popular art field. Advertising has become respectable in its own right and is beating the fine arts at their old game. We cannot ignore the fact that one of the traditional functions of fine art, the definition of what is fine and desirable for the ruling class, and therefore ultimately that which is desired by all society, has now been taken over by the ad-man.”
Russ mentioned Lichtenstein!
I think illustration fans tend to hate pop even more than they hate the modernists. Which is kind of too bad, since it seems like there could be some useful influence back and forth there….
Though come to think of it, I’d imagine the Fort Thunder folks have some appreciation for the pop artists….
Robert:
Maybe Pollock got the idea of painting on glass after the Namuth Falkenberg film, but I may be wrong. Some date checking is needed and I’m not doing it.
The technique is important because these paintings were supposed to be on the ceiling of the Tony Smith church (check out the open spaces on top of the model). The glass permitted to mingle Pollock’s movements with the movements of nature (clouds by day, stars by night). That’s why I quoted Hermes Trismegistus.
Besides, Pollock was very interested in representations of the Universe. At the end of the forties, early fifties, he was influenced by Surrealism in two ways: 1) as part of the mythmakers he was interested in magic and the so-called primitive cultures (hence: Dineh sandpaintings); 2) Miro’s stars and blue color fields. a painting dated 1947 is titled _Gallaxy_.
Caro:
Again, that’s folklore. Maybe Rivers is describing a drunk Pollock, but I don’t know what that has to do with Pollock’s art? It’s as if someone insisted on talking about madness when discussing Van Gogh. Folklore is great to do stupid biopics, but that’s all…
By the way Noah: Warhol is great, but it wasn’t (isn’t) Warhol who’s still influential after almost a century. The single most important artist of the 20th century if we want to talk about influence was Marcel Duchamp. Pop is basically a Neodadaism.
Rivers’ is blending critical reading with biographical details. Using biography in criticism is totally legit. It can get a ridiculous if carried too far — but that’s the case for most things.
I think Warhol himself remains very influential — but sure, Duchamp is huge.
“[Pollock was] a real jerk, very unpleasant to be around. Very stupid.”
How is the above a “critical reading?” It’s just gossip in my book…
I don’t think it’s folklore if Warhol wrote it; I think it’s Warhol. Folklore by Warhol – isn’t that Pop?
(The first quote actually is direct discourse Warhol, though; my first comment is badly misleading. It’s only the second that’s presented as a quote. The attribution for the first should be to Warhol, not Rivers.)
But does it really matter if Rivers really said even what Warhol attributed to him? Warhol said it either way…It’s still very representative of how Noah’s point was Pop. I don’t think there’s anything about Pop that makes it imperative upon Andy Warhol to tell the literal historical truth…and we’re missing the point if we take it as such.
But I agree with you on Duchamp — as I think would Warhol: one of his favorite artists was Florine Stettheimer…Walter Hopps, who organized the first Duchamp retrospective in the US also owned the gallery that first carried Warhol’s soup cans; Warhol’s biographers make the connection numerous times and it’s a recurring theme at the Warhol museum — but the influence is more broadly Pop (it was a theme of the National Portrait Gallery’s Duchamp exhibit last year.) There’s a newspaper interview from 1970 where Jasper Johns talks about going to the Philadelphia museum to see the Duchamp collection (I read this in the materials you get at the PMOA when you tour the Duchamp collection, but I don’t remember the newspaper; I can probably find this out.) I could probably fill a notebook listing documentary evidence for the Pop affection for Duchamp.
BUT, Duchamp was also an influence on the Abstract Expressionists, so the ways in which Warhol differentiated himself from Motherwell (which is what the folklore is) matters. Honestly, google ANY 20th century art movement and Duchamp and you’ll get someone saying that there’s an influence.
At some point, it becomes meaningless as influence and simply becomes culture, and the ways the influenced differentiate themselves from each other is more interesting and meaningful. And I think that’s Noah’s point: Warhol “became culture” more than the Abstract Expressionists did.
I really did only cite this:
to clarify what I’d messed up in the previous comment when I misattributed the longer quote to Rivers.The important quote was Warhol’s, not Rivers’.
But I think it matters that Warhol thought it was worth telling us that Rivers’ said this: it matters that Warhol chose THAT to gossip about.
The whole episode is 3-4 pages and narrates Warhol looking up his friends who knew the Abstract Expressionists to ask them “what it was like when those guys were hanging out here” and “why don’t they like me?” The story he tells on the surface about how Warhol is different from Jackson Pollock is also a story about how Pop is different from Ab-Ex.
That’s definitely criticism, but I’m not sure I’d call it “critical reading” because it’s much more critical writing, with the point very much being to construct a mythology for Pop. It’s really pretty fantastically well done.
This is making a critical point:
“The toughness was part of a tradition, it went with their anguished, agonized art. They were always exploding and having fist fights about their work and their love lives.”
He’s saying the anguished agonized art was about masculinity. You can disagree, but it’s definitely a take on their art. Just because it’s connected to (possibly apocryphal) gossip doesn’t mean that it’s not also a critical statement. (And, as Caro points out, you could argue that the blurring of gossip and criticism is actually part of a Pop aesthetic stance.)
I do think Pop remains pretty important. Paul Nudd, the artiist I referenced above, is certainly influenced by Pop as well as ab-ex; you could see what he does as turning ab-ex into pop, in some ways — which does indicate that for him at least pop is more important (it’s the end goal that eats the other art.)
I guess I’d argue that if visual art is characterized by anything these days, it’s by omnivorousness. That certainly starts with an openness to non-art (dada), but it also encompasses an openness to crap culture, which is dada-via-pop. In comparison, ab-ex — and painting in general — occupies a relatively circumscribed portion of the art world.
Caro:
That’s all fine and dandy. The only problem is that Pollock was being discussed, not Warhol. (I understood your correction, by the way.) Even if highly reductive and stereotypical I find the Warhol’s quote interesting. The Rivers,’ on the other hand…
I don’t think you can overestimate how much Warhol’s dismissal of the Abstract Expressionists affected their subsequent reception and interpretation…discussing critical interpretations of Pollock without attention to Pop is pretty historically naive.
But I wasn’t really trying to make a point about Pollock, ’tis true: I was answering first Noah’s comment about not being the first to think of this and second your assertion that Warhol’s critique of the Ab-Exers is “folklore.” It is — but in the Pop positive, not the derogatory sense that you used it, because Pop has a different purpose for criticism and influence than the one on display in this thread.
(This thread, which, at least in the original tangent, was about illustration v fine art, also not about Pollock. And Pop has a lot to say about THAT.)
To be fair, here’s what Larry Rivers also said (I’m translation from the French, so, these aren’t his exact words): “The importance of his work, his serious candidness and his simple domestic well being moved us.” Us being Rivers and Helen Frankenthaler who visited Jackson Pollock and Lee Krasner in 1951.
Caro, could you expand on how Pop affected ab-ex and on the purpose of criticism in Pop?
Since when is underestimating the same thing as hatred? Come on.
Caro answered this! Quite well, too….
Shit, I was thrown for a loop. Didn’t realize that there were so many comments. I only read a few thinking I was at the end. Ignore me while I play catchup.
Alright, I still don’t see a defense of that. Underestimating isn’t the same thing as hatred. But, whatever, the conversation has clearly moved on. Apologies.
I didn’t mean anything particularly profound, Noah: it’s just that so much of Pop Art was overt “performative criticism” of Abstract Expressionism, like Rauschenberg’s erasing the de Kooning drawing. Art historians writing on Abstract Expressionism from any but the most traditional vantage point would keep in mind that perspective, but it’s much more that the Ab-Exs have that reputation among people who are not disciplined professionals in art history, because Pop’s take on them was so public.
Coming on the heels of Ab-Ex and viewing it as the icon that stood in the way of ambitious art — Pop prevented Ab-Ex (and any other subsequent art movement) from gaining the same kind of entrenched, broadly recognized and acknowledged, popularity of Picasso. Everybody knows who Jackson Pollock is, just like they know who Picasso is, but the “my kid could paint that” reaction is an effect of Pop.
So it’s a vantage point any audience reading about Ab-Ex is likely to have to some extent. It feeds into academic criticism differently from public discourse, but I think even in academia it’s hard to extract Ab-Ex into some pure historical context in which Pop never happened or hadn’t happened yet. The ways we see Pollock and de Kooning were transformed by the exposure Pop gave to them, and we can’t recapture the naive 1950s gaze…
Of course, thinking of interpretation and history that way is very Pop…but it’s also very poststructuralist. It’s probably just postmodern. I just don’t think we can easily get out of it…
I’d have to think about the purpose of criticism in Pop, as in, what did they think they were doing; no specific comments are coming to mind off the top of my head. It was a very meta movement, but a lot of their criticism was embedded in their art: there wasn’t a very clear line between creating and critiquing, so it’s hard to distill a perspective that was uniquely about criticism…
Hey Charles — What I said (although I think I said it better the first time) was that if you underestimate someone due to misogyny, and someone else hates someone due to misogyny, then any qualitative difference is due to the difference between the underestimating and the hatred, not due to two different kinds of misogyny. The misogyny is the same: it’s just the amount of violence (or the intensity of the emotion) that’s different.
Misogyny isn’t something that comes in degrees – only the expression of misogyny comes in degrees. You either don’t have contempt for women in general, or you do.
Actually, I think you say it better this time, because you make misogyny the basis for both things being compared rape and underestimation. For the first go-round, it sounded like you were saying that feeling the need to rescue a woman was the same as hating her, which doesn’t make sense (you know, why rescue something that you hate?).
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Charles Reece says:
…you make misogyny the basis for both things being compared rape and underestimation. For the first go-round, it sounded like you were saying that feeling the need to rescue a woman was the same as hating her, which doesn’t make sense (you know, why rescue something that you hate?)…
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These terms themselves are hardly precise. “Homophobia,” for instance; likely many intolerant straights don’t feel threatened deep down by gays, but merely consider them revolting or grotesque creatures.
“Misogyny” is another muddle, supposedly encompassing both the serial-rapist and the Old School gent who shamelessly opens doors for “ladies” (the swine!”), or has the condescending “don’t bother your little head about that” attitude.
If “infantilizing” women by considering them incapable of dealing with danger or business or challenging intellectual matters shows “contempt for women in general,” do our attitudes about children show contempt as well, or something more subtle than that? In which protectiveness, even love, play a significant part?
Since “misogyny” and “rape imagery” is being used to describe some of Frazetta’s work, it’s worth considering that for being such a “manly man” who frequently depicted women as helplessly needing rescuing, Frazetta hardly kept his wife “barefoot and pregnant”; she was a cherished, full-fledged partner, in business as well as life.
Some comments about the passing of Ellie Frazetta:
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When I was in college, 30 years ago, I had a friend who was hitchhiking through PA and he stopped by the Frazetta farm, hoping to get an autograph. He felt kind of bad about showing up unannounced, but couldn’t pass up the opportunity. He said that he knocked on the door, answered by Ellie, and timidly asked about an autograph. She grabbed him, drug him inside, fed him, introduced him to the family, gave him a grand tour of the place and sold him several posters, that Frank then, under her steely eye autographed. He was completely charmed by them and became a fan for life.
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I’ve known painters who’ve had that kind of wife. They were successful.
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How rare to see the passing of a famous artist’s wife garner such attention in the media. It’s a testament to what a truly unique person she was, the perfect compliment to her husband. Ellie was definitely the “woman behind the man”..
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I had the opportunity to meet Ellie a decade ago during one of Frank’s convention appearances. She was a wonderful, engaging person and great conversationalist (though I’d forgotten exactly what we discussed). As others have said, it was clear to me having met her that she was a huge part of Frank’s success.
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In 2005, my two friends and I made the trek from Massachusetts to the museum. Ellie needed help opening a box and I volunteered. The next thing we knew, Ellie is walking around the museum with us, telling us the stories behind the paintings…basically, she was our personal tour guide for the whole weekend…and then, right before it was time for us to go, she says: “Would you like to meet Frank?” She brought us into the house, left us alone for a time so we could view all the artwork in the house, and then brought us into Frank’s studio. But Ellie still wasn’t done…we bought a couple of posters and had them autographed…well, Ellie took some of our payment, pushed it back into our hands and said dinner is on us. That weekend was memorable not just because we got to meet Frank Frazetta, it was memorable because we got to meet Ellie Frazetta.
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http://boingboing.net/2009/07/24/ellie-frazetta-rip.html
Our culture’s treatment of children is really problematic in a lot of ways, actually. I think there is condescension, and that that condescension is part of how we justify, for example, our truly awful public school system. Shulamith Firestone actually made explicit connections between the treatment of children and the treatment of women, arguing that feminism needed to champion the rights of children to respect and autonomy as well as the rights of women if it were going to be consistent.
Re: Frazetta’s wife. Artists and their work aren’t the same. Artists like Tolstoy who claimed liberal values can treat their wives like crap; artists like Frazetta who have compulsive misogyny in their work don’t necessarily treat their wives like crap. As I said earlier in the thread, biography can give you insight into an artist’s work — but I don’t think it’s the last word, or even necessarily the most important one in many cases.
I’m sure that Ellie and Frank were perfectly charming people, Mike, that’s not the point. These are fantasies concocted on the mind of a very talented person, nothing else. I agree with Noah that the life of an artist may explain some of her/his art, but lets not assume that’s always the case, please…
Hi Charles — I didn’t think so: I said:
“Misogyny” seems clearly the point there – but I’m glad it’s clearer now!
The mistake I see throughout, though, is in thinking that concepts like “misogyny” and “homophobia” have degrees. They’re not muddles, or even flexible in their definitions. They’re just what they are. People are what’s muddled. A misogynistic person could conceivably manage to never perform a single misogynistic act, and sometimes a person whose perspective seems entirely affectionate does things that end up limiting a woman’s choices. Those affectionate men are often the most difficult to deal with because of exactly the complaint Mike raises: how do you explain to someone who obviously loves you that the things he’s doing out of affection are hurting you, especially gently, without hurting him in return?
Misogynist actions by affectionate men surely won’t be violent, and I agree that matters, but asking a woman to say that something that hurts her is ok because it isn’t violent or even overtly snide is just a little nauseating, as if we have to accept a world where the most we can ask for is not to be hit or openly sneered at? That’s absurd and I don’t believe anybody who has spoken on this subject means that. It’s just that the word “misogyny” has such bad overtones people are afraid of it. It’s easier to think of the concept as muddled than admit that we’ve all done and felt flawed things.
More to the point, like the actions of the affectionate man, a cultural object can be misogynistic entirely by accident (or unconsciously so), even if the artist was the most well-intentioned person in the world. Because the cultural object exists and works in the world independently of the artist’s intentions.
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Caro says:
… It’s just that the word “misogyny” has such bad overtones people are afraid of it. It’s easier to think of the concept as muddled than admit that we’ve all done and felt flawed things.
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Gotta get ready for work soon; a quick comment, though.
“Misogyny” is indeed such an overwhelmingly negative term – it sounds like a disease – that it casts even an old-fashioned bit of courtesy like opening a door for a lady poisonous. Even the term “lady” is made toxically condescending. Howcum its counterpart, “gentleman,” is OK, then?
(Being somewhat old-fashioned myself, yet a non-party-line feminist, I solve this conundrum by holding doors open for both men and women.)
Take a look at an even more negative noun, “racism.” In “The Adventures of Tintin in Otherland, Part 4,” Alex Buchet writes…
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« So, » says the ghost [of Hergé], « you’ve really dragged me through the mud, eh? But what about yourself, Alex? Are you a racist?”
“No!” I answer. ”No, but…”
New York, Washington Square Park. I loiter around a chess game – I’m a rotten player, but I enjoy it as a spectator sport. Somebody grabs my arm—a muscular young Black man. I tense up with a fight-or-flight boost of adrenaline…
“You want a game?” he asks. He didn’t want to mug me, he wanted to play chess.
Many another middle-class, middle-aged White man can attest to such embarrassing moments, where — despite professed liberalism– racist instincts seem to kick in at the worst times. It’s good that our conscious selves master our subconscious. The fact is, for one of my generation (I was born in 1954), urban African-Americans were synonymous with danger; an unofficial apartheid divided the city; and despite the fact that I was never hurt or even threatened by a Black man (the few times I was mugged were by Whites), I had internalised this detestable racist prejudice, one that went unspoken…
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Considering the fact (for some reason, despite their once being common, statistics corroborating this have become extremely hard to find online) that African-Americans are four times as likely as whites to have criminal backgrounds, especially in places where significant, impoverished communities of them exist such as New York; that many have (for understandable reasons) considerable hostility towards whites, can Alex’s reaction be utterly dismissed as “racist”?
Could there not be a reasonable basis for that added suspicion, even if it’s regrettably unfair to law-abiding black folks?
Jesse Jackson mentioned that he was more afraid of black people in a mugging situation than of white people. But I don’t think that that means that the reaction isn’t tinged by racism (as I think Jackson would acknowledge.)
Old-fashioned courtesy was very often misogynist. The strictures around women in upper middle class Victorian households were intended for women’s protection and justified on the basis of courtesy — yet they were so painful for women that many became physically and acutely ill.
I’d agree that nobody wants to be called a misogynist or a racist. That’s natural; folks would prefer to indulge their prejudices without being called on it.
In general, It’s more useful to refer to acts or behaviors as misogynist than to people. People are complicated and act from various motives; you can’t really say that anyone is categorically misogynist, just like you can’t say that anyone is categorically evil. Frazetta’s paintings are often misogynist, but that doesn’t mean that the man himself was in every instance, or even in most. We’re not judging his life. We’re looking at his pictures.
To both Mike and Caro,
“‘Misogyny’ is another muddle, supposedly encompassing both the serial-rapist and the Old School gent who shamelessly opens doors for ‘ladies’ (the swine!), or has the condescending “don’t bother your little head about that” attitude.”
The mistake I see throughout, though, is in thinking that concepts like ‘misogyny’ and ‘homophobia’ have degrees. They’re not muddles, or even flexible in their definitions. They’re just what they are. People are what’s muddled.
I think the word y’all want here is ‘sexism’. It requires less theoretical noodling to justify its usage in the case of someone like Frazetta. Not all sexism is misogyny. Many women have agreed with/accepted the sexist limitations of themselves, and even lived happy lives. I believe that was probably along the lines of Jesse’s original point, that not all underestimation of women is the same as misogyny.
Charles, I have no idea what this sentence means: “Many women have agreed with/accepted the sexist limitations of themselves, and even lived happy lives.” And it might be useful to have a clearer sense of how you differentiate between sexism and misogyny before I try to respond…
Sure. I was thinking of the June Cleaver type. June accepted that Ward was the final word in the house, the breadwinner, et al.. Many women have lived this kind of life; it’s sexist, but functional and hasn’t always led to misery, or bred a contempt/loathing/hatred for all of the distaff half. Misogyny is a member of sexism, not vice versa.
I wouldn’t say that the Cleaver situation isn’t misogynist. I’d say that the whole culture was misogynist. That situation was an entire SOCIETY stacked against poor June — what else was she supposed to do but make the best of it?
Sexism emanates from misogyny. Every single time. Misogyny is the ground condition, not a subspecies of its effect. Sexist things happen because someone somewhere thinks one gender is better than the other. It’s just not always a one to one interaction between two people: sometimes the “someone” is an institution or a culture rather than a man.
The saving grace for women in those situations very often was indeed a good man who did his best not to exploit his cultural advantage at the expense of his wife and daughters, and to even find opportunities for them despite the cultural obstacles. It would be unfair to discount the importance of men in ultimately helping change that situation.
But letting individual men off the hook in some specific situation doesn’t make the whole damn thing somehow anything other than contemptuous of women, nor does it mean that women’s acceptance of it somehow made it ok. There were plenty of men and plenty of women who bought into that system entirely and internalized its contemptuousness for women, but there were plenty who didn’t. The misogyny was there either way, regardless of how the people reacted to it, embedded in cultural expectations and structures, whether or not any given person internalized it.
I don’t know Charles. I think it matters that June Cleaver wasn’t a real person here. In fact, you could argue without too much trouble that she’s a sexist image/trope. (I haven’t seen Leave It to Beaver, so can’t say whether she is or isn’t — but I can say that she’s more likely to be a sexist trope than to be a real life exemplar of how women happily adapt to sexism.)
I mean, yes, there were even some small number of slaves who seem to have liked slavery. There were an even smaller number who fought for the South in the Civil War. Some people try to use that to say that racism didn’t exist, or wasn’t important. It’s a specious argument, because the mere fact that everyone everywhere isn’t miserable is not an excuse for institutional injustice.
But you’re not saying sexism didn’t exist. You’re making some sort of distinction between misogyny and sexism — which I’m still not clear on….
June Cleaver is definitely a sexist image/trope, but there were women in the ’50s mostly like her. It was hard not to be – mostly the women who had other choices were very affluent. The Cleavers were ordinary middle class.
But I personally have always felt that Barbara Billingsley did a good job infusing the character with just a little bit of melancholy, while still conveying a lot of love for her family and, as Charles says, acceptance of her role. Donna Stone (Donna Reed) is probably more the archetype Charles is really looking for.
Caro, you’re far more of an absolutist than I.
Sexism emanates from misogyny. Every single time.
Only it doesn’t. Consider: I know I’m better at math than my cats. That doesn’t mean I hate my cats, loathe them, or have contempt for them. Sorry, it doesn’t. And the same thing can be argued for someone like Lawrence Sumner’s view of women in science. Hatred is a very active state, not something that lies dormant, or unconscious, supplying a hidden support for conscious views. The ideology of sexism, however, can, even giving support to misogyny.
Noah,
In fact, you could argue without too much trouble that she’s a sexist image/trope.
That’s just what I said.
I’ve got to leave, but I’ll be back.
Your being better at math than your cats is a pretty simplistic biological comparison. It’s like saying dogs are better at smelling than you are or bats are better at reading sound waves than you are. You seriously want me to use a statement like “humans are better at math than cats” as a benchmark for determining the nature of misogyny?
I hope you’re going to think twice, three or four times if necessary, about the implication that human women are “like another species.” Specifically the implication that human women don’t deserve more respect than you extend to another species, particularly a domesticated species who is entirely dependent on you.
There was in fact no transcript of Summers’ comments, so I don’t know what he actually said — I only know that what was reported was an assertion that women’s underrepresentation in the sciences was due to similarly “innate” properties as your cats’ math ability.
Now that’s BOTH sexist and misogynist. It’s demonstrably untrue and provides a convenient excuse to both overlook successful women in science and to fail to create a climate that helps women be successful, and it’s a pretty clear cut example of “lack of respect” or contempt for women.
I can’t abide Summers, but I know from experience that the culture of science is very dismissive of “environmental factors” and encourages people to feel that anybody who doesn’t succeed fails due to aptitude. So it is entirely possible that his misogyny is cultural rather than personal. It is nonetheless misogyny.
Misogyny isn’t just “hatred of women” although that is misogyny. It’s also “contempt for” or “lack of respect for” women. Your definition is narrow in a way that allows you to let certain manifestations of misogyny off the hook.
This is precisely the kind of argument that my initial point was intended to convey: trying to “whitewash” misogyny by limiting it to the most aggressive and violent and hate-filled examples of it is, in fact, sexist. Misogyny includes all of the above: everything from hate and contempt to disrespect and condescension. Because it doesn’t have degrees. Saying it doesn’t include all of those things is denying the experiences of women who have been hurt by contempt and condescension, and opening a cultural space for that contempt and condescension to continue to flourish. The former is disrespect and that’s misogynist. The latter is a power play and it’s sexist.
I think there’s partially a problem of language here. Misogyny is often taken to mean just “hatred of women”, much as homophobia is taken to mean “fear of gay people.” I think both of those definitions are overly limiting. In general, I”d say misogyny means a personal investment, or buy-in, or acting in accordance with, sexist ideology.
Again, the point of misogyny is really how you act, not what your motives are. Motives are hidden and difficult to parse at the best of times. Actions are visible and a lot easier to categorize.
A lot of the impetus for trying to limit the meaning of misogyny to an internal state is that, as Mike said, it’s a harsh word. I think that harshness is valuable, though. Sexism is a loathsome ideology, and it should excite visceral disgust. Misogyny gets at that, and is applicable whether or not Larry Summers feels hate in his heart or whether he’s just an objective scientific ass.
Caro,
I don’t expect we’ll see eye-to-eye on this. For one:
Misogyny includes all of the above: everything from hate and contempt to disrespect and condescension. Because it doesn’t have degrees.
You state a bunch of degrees, subsume them under misogyny, and then claim it doesn’t have any degrees. Hunh?
For another:
Saying it doesn’t include all of those things is denying the experiences of women who have been hurt by contempt and condescension, and opening a cultural space for that contempt and condescension to continue to flourish.
I’m arguing about the use of a term, not denying the experiences of women. Language doesn’t equal reality. To me, not substituting ‘misogyny’ for ever instance of ‘sexism’ enables better communication of what’s actually going on.
Finally:
There was in fact no transcript of Summers’ comments
It’s here.
I only know that what was reported was an assertion that women’s underrepresentation in the sciences was due to similarly “innate” properties as your cats’ math ability.
Now that’s BOTH sexist and misogynist.
Are you claiming that any suggestion of innate differences is both sexist and misogynist? I think evidence has some role to play here. There was a lot of overreaction to his speech, which just wasn’t warranted. Without getting into a whole nature vs. nurture debate, I’d suggest that calling his analysis ‘misogynist’ doesn’t hold up, and doesn’t do the goal of equality any favors.
Regarding my analogy: my point wasn’t that women are like cats, but that an estimation of another’s abilities might not be rooted in hatred. Make no mistake, I believe sexism robs women of a part of their humanity; as an ideology, it limits their potential, particularly when they themselves accept it. (The “scientific ass” Summers suggests that socialization and discrimination are probably the most important factors in limiting women’s participation in higher sciences.) But there is evidence of some biological differences in performance on various (operationally defined) abilities. It’s not conclusive, is hotly debated, and I’m not sold. Even if the experimental hypothesis (that there is a difference) is proven wrong — perhaps due to some third variable — that doesn’t mean the current use of the supporting evidence is a form of misogyny. Yes, a sexist is going to be primed to accept the affirmative hypothesis, but dismissing it all with a rhetorically charged label doesn’t accomplish much. Anyway, my analogy was supposed to suggest something along those lines. If it were discovered some day that cats are really great at math, naturally so, but haven’t been given the proper chance, based on speciesism, I don’t think that would change my current view to hatred of them. However, if that doesn’t elicit any intuitive grasp of what I was getting at, just throw it away. I wasn’t being dismissive of your experience or women’s capabilities in general.
Noah,
I know you weren’t intending this, but I agree that the overuse of ‘misogyny’ is a cheap rhetorical move.
Hey Charles. I don’t think it’s overused, and I think it’s a justified rhetorical move. That is, calling misogyny “misogyny” seems like a resaonable thing to do to me, even though “misogyny” is a charged word which makes people upset when it’s applied to them.
I think this is somewhat confused as well:
“I’m arguing about the use of a term, not denying the experiences of women. Language doesn’t equal reality. To me, not substituting ‘misogyny’ for ever instance of ‘sexism’ enables better communication of what’s actually going on.”
Terminology and definitions can easily be a way of defining the experiences of various groups, as Orwell would tell you. Language doesn’t equal reality, but it can shape it.
You claim you’re improving communication — but you still haven’t explained what you think the difference between misogyny and sexism is, and you certainly haven’t demonstrated that your view of that distinction is widely shared or commonly understood (which it seems like you’d have to do if the goal is actually improving communication, or if you want to charge that using the two synonymously is cheap or confusing.)
As it stands, the point I think Caro is making is that separating misogyny from sexism in the way you seem to be doing (though it’s hard to tell without a definition, but still) seems like a way to argue that certain kinds of motivations for mistreating women are worse than other kinds of motivations. Anti-women motivations which result in rape are worse than anti-women motivations which result in, say, refusing to allow women to play basketball because you think they’re too delicate for that sort of thing and might get hurt.
One of the insights of feminism is that those two things are actually connected; that violence against women and limitations on what women are allowed to do are not opposites, but in fact are a single system of oppression and control. You can call that system sexism, or patriarchy, or misogyny, but whatever you call it, it’s wrong in itself because it denies women’s humanity. The violence of rape, for example, is also wrong — but if you take away the violence (as you do in the basketball example) the misogyny is still wrong.
Trying to separate misogyny from sexism appears to lead you to a place where you’re saying that individual actors are culpable in certain instances for denying women humanity, but not, or less culpable in others. I think that’s bad reasoning…though again, it’s hard to say exactly what you’re getting at because you haven’t explained how you’re using your terms, and those terms don’t appear to be used in everyday speech the way you seem to be using them.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…In general, It’s more useful to refer to acts or behaviors as misogynist than to people. People are complicated and act from various motives; you can’t really say that anyone is categorically misogynist, just like you can’t say that anyone is categorically evil. Frazetta’s paintings are often misogynist, but that doesn’t mean that the man himself was in every instance, or even in most. We’re not judging his life. We’re looking at his pictures.
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Charles Reece says:
…I think the word y’all want here is ‘sexism’. It requires less theoretical noodling to justify its usage in the case of someone like Frazetta. Not all sexism is misogyny.
——————–
Y’ beat me to it! Rather than the sweepingly negative “misogyny” or “racism,” why not – depending on the case or situation – employ more precise terms such as “sexism,” “condescension,” “prejudice”?
———————-
Noah Berlatsky says:
…calling misogyny “misogyny” seems like a resaonable thing to do to me, even though “misogyny” is a charged word which makes people upset when it’s applied to them.
———————–
The stereotypical strident feminist might upbraid some clueless older gent as a “misogynist” for holding a door open for her, or offering her his seat on a bus. Rather than calling him a woman-hater, a characterization which he would reject as grossly unfair, would it not better help enlighten him to say his attitude, though well-meaning, is “condescending”?
———————-
…the point I think Caro is making is that separating misogyny from sexism in the way you seem to be doing (though it’s hard to tell without a definition, but still)
———————-
Oh, for Pete’s sake. From good ol’ dictionary.com:
———————-
mi·sog·y·ny
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
———————
sex·ism
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person’s sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women.
———————
Maybe I’m too comfortable with gray zones, but I see pretty significant differences there. Sure, there can be overlap; but can’t some unenlightened person – male or female – believe, for instance, that a woman is most fulfilled through motherhood, and not necessarily “hate, dislike, or distrust women”?
———————
Noah Berlatsky says:
… seems like a way to argue that certain kinds of motivations for mistreating women are worse than other kinds of motivations. Anti-women motivations which result in rape are worse than anti-women motivations which result in, say, refusing to allow women to play basketball because you think they’re too delicate for that sort of thing and might get hurt.
———————-
Is that so difficult to comprehend? And forbidding someone you care about from engaging in an activity which you think they could get hurt in is “mistreating them”? If I were a smoker and my wife laid down the law that I’d better quit, because she doesn’t want me to very likely sicken and die, is that “mistreatment”?
————————
One of the insights of feminism is that those two things are actually connected; that violence against women and limitations on what women are allowed to do are not opposites, but in fact are a single system of oppression and control. You can call that system sexism, or patriarchy, or misogyny, but whatever you call it, it’s wrong in itself because it denies women’s humanity.
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Rather than deny women’s humanity, I’d quibble that it limits their humanity or capabilities. But sure, there is a connection.
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Trying to separate misogyny from sexism appears to lead you to a place where you’re saying that individual actors are culpable in certain instances for denying women humanity, but not, or less culpable in others. I think that’s bad reasoning…
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No. Consider how in, say, the 50′s, where astonishingly sexist behavior and attitudes were taken for granted, raping and murdering women was still considered beyond the pale.
That clueless older gent mentioned earlier could be thought “less culpable” for holding a door open for a woman. Because that’s the society he grew up in, the way a gentleman was supposed to act back then, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, etc.
But, aside from some pillaging Vikings or such, raping and murdering women is well-nigh universally considered horrendous behavior; thus his doing so would be “more culpable.”
Re your saying that “Frazetta’s paintings are often misogynist,” nonsense. Was he showing those women as sluts, deserving to get dragged off by troglodytes for their brazen cockteasing?
With all his depictions of men getting slaughtered and mutilated, their corpses often stacked up like cordwood, how come nobody’s said “Frazetta’s paintings are overwhelmingly misandrist?”
Everybody takes it so for granted that men being killed en masse is but a routine trope in adventure or heroic fantasy, that no one has called Frazetta a “man hater.”
Noah said exactly what I would have said, more elegantly that I would have said it, I’m sure, so I’m going to wait for Charles to respond before commenting further!
Mike:
I’m far from being a Frazetta expert, so I probably should shut up, but anyway… Aren’t those killed en masse usually sub-humans (hence: not men).
A few examples caught on the www:
http://tinyurl.com/2umjn9j
http://tinyurl.com/36h8s7n
http://tinyurl.com/39tvdw7
To be fair: I also found some Arabs, or something:
http://tinyurl.com/2vkf6qo
Which supports your point, but isn’t exactly great if we consider the stereotype (the yellow peril, the evil Oriental, etc…). Here you can see who the heroes really are (white people from Scandinavia or thereabouts; does any of this sound dangerously familiar?):
http://tinyurl.com/3am5u4z
I did have one response to Mike, actually:
Although I haven’t looked at enough Frazettas to have a meaningful opinion whether they’re overwhelmingly misogynist or not, part of my point is that any discussion of whether or not they’re misogynist won’t have anything to do with the motivations either of Frazetta for drawing them or of the characters in the painting for committing the actions that someone identified as misogynist.
The only thing relevant for saying “yes this is misogynist” or “no it isn’t” is the way in which the images participate in what Noah rightly described as the “system of oppression and control.” They’re either going to support that system, or undermine it: criticism will contest mightily for which one is right, but motivation won’t figure in.
We’re stuck one step back from criticism, in a loop debating whether the critical definition of “misogyny” is valid in the first place.
Sorry for that first image (and the third hardly represents a killing en masse, it’s just a killing of a huge muscle mass).
Here’s another one, then:
http://tinyurl.com/382m5tn
Here, Frazetta managed to join the yellow peril and the sub-human!
http://tinyurl.com/35zy3ge
Noah,
You claim you’re improving communication — but you still haven’t explained what you think the difference between misogyny and sexism is, and you certainly haven’t demonstrated that your view of that distinction is widely shared or commonly understood (which it seems like you’d have to do if the goal is actually improving communication, or if you want to charge that using the two synonymously is cheap or confusing.)
I thought I had. I’m using the dictionary definitions (as Mike was kind enough to quote). That’s a good enough measure of common parlance. You and Caro are using a rhetorically charged jargon that erodes distinctions in actually existing degrees of bias. I don’t see how that helps anything but your own ideological stance. Sexism and misogyny aren’t synonyms. The latter is a particularly virulent member of the former class.
As it stands, the point I think Caro is making is that separating misogyny from sexism in the way you seem to be doing (though it’s hard to tell without a definition, but still) seems like a way to argue that certain kinds of motivations for mistreating women are worse than other kinds of motivations.
Well, certain kinds of motivations are going to lead to different kinds of mistreatments, aren’t they? An old-fashioned couple in a loving relationship with the wife being submissive, but both members find this acceptable, isn’t the same as a guy who beats the hell of his wife every night. Isn’t this obvious? Saying this is all just misogyny makes hash out of the distinction and the way sexism isn’t just forced upon the minority position.
One of the insights of feminism is that those two things are actually connected
Realize that I’ve argued that sexism and misogyny are connected, the latter comes from the former. You’re claiming that they’re merely synonyms (and Caro even claims that there’s no degrees). It seems you need the distinction with your basketball example: maybe a few women can play professionally with men, but they’re not permitted based on objective physical differences holding for the majority of women. These exceptions not being given the chance would be an effect of sexism, but not misogyny.
I don’t get your point here:
Trying to separate misogyny from sexism appears to lead you to a place where you’re saying that individual actors are culpable in certain instances for denying women humanity, but not, or less culpable in others.
Differing degrees and types of bias will lead to different mistreatments, which makes the bigot culpable in different ways and to different levels.
Mike,
I love your (counter-intuitive) point about Frazetta’s misandry. Maybe he’s a misanthrope.
Oy, this thread is fast-moving! Sorry to rejoin the conversation so late.
Caro,
“Misogyny isn’t something that comes in degrees – only the expression of misogyny comes in degrees. You either don’t have contempt for women in general, or you do.”
Or, you have a degree (howdy Charles) of contempt for women. Blithely underestimating someone shows a little contempt; wanting to rape her shows a lot. These attitudes may spring from the same cultural well, but that doesn’t make them equally wicked.
Noah,
“So is there anything that Frazetta is doing conceptually that you’re willing to say is worthwhile, intelligent, moving, powerful, or etc.? Or is your interest in him based entirely on formal issues? And, more broadly, do you in general respond to art on a conceptual level? Or are formal issues paramount for you (your discussion here suggests that that may be the case, but I could be misreading.)”
My discussion of my essay has focused on formal issues because, well, that was the focus of my essay.
As for conceptual issues: as I said earlier, I think fidelity to one’s vision is paramount. Frazetta was able to communicate his vision more accurately, and therefore more powerfully, than just about anyone. Even people who disdain his subjects and his attitude are often spellbound by his work, because of this fidelity. To observe Frazetta’s paintings is to share his dreams (whether we like them or not). Other artists with similar preoccupations aren’t as potent, nor are many artists with smarter, nobler preoccupations. These might be better, more sophisticated people, but they are lesser artists because we don’t see through their eyes as clearly.
I think the value of art is not that it reveals a good person or a smart person or a deep person, but that it reveals a person. The clarity of that revelation is what determines the work’s quality.
Robert,
Thanks for your praise of my essay.
Frazetta did not revisit the executioner image several times, unless by “several” you mean 3 or 4, decades apart — a few drops in the ocean of a 50-year career. You cite the Death Dealer as a development of that imagery, but the only traits the Death Dealer has in common with executioners are his covered face and his axe — both common to warriors in general — and he has plenty of differences (body armor, a horse, no chopping block, no hood…). I appreciate your effort to account for why people find that image especially horrific, but your theory of an executioner theme in Frazetta’s work just isn’t supported by the evidence.
You’re incorrect to interpret “Captive Princess” as a rape fantasy. The would-be rapists there are subhuman and unappealing, and repel vicarious identification. As Mike argued, the viewer is invited to imagine dashing in to save the princess, and this fantasy doesn’t require a hero-figure in the painting.
In fairness, I can think of one example of the sort of imagery you describe: an untitled drawing of a barbarian carrying off two frantic women. Unlike the example cited above, here the heroic majesty of the male’s physique and posture, and the comical appearance of the women’s protest, as well as their greater number, attempts to invite and excuse identification with the male. But your essay fails to distinguish between a rare instance like this and the far more common rescue fantasies Mike described.
Your take on Frazetta’s boyhood enthusiasms is total speculation, and is therefore a poor basis from which to critique his work. It’s something one might argue to, but hardly from, if you get my meaning.
Frazetta’s interviews needn’t be reliable to throw doubt on your speculation; that they contain no reference to most of the works you cite is enough. After all, the burden of proof is on the one making the positive and unprecedented claim.
Also, contra your claim, I’m not aware of any imagery from those works appearing in Frazetta’s ’40s work.
Whether some of his peers were into that stuff or not is irrelevant. Our peers enjoy much that we don’t. Moreover, the stuff you listed wasn’t generally popular during Frazetta’s boyhood. Aside from Tarzan, to which I’ve acknowledged Frazetta’s debt, Burroughs’s works had a low profile during the ’30s and ’40s. Howard’s works were only briefly popular in the pages of some obscure magazines. Movie monsters of the ’30s were popular, but those rarely appear in Frazetta’s oeuvre, so I’m not sure why you brought them up in the first place.
You also assume without basis that Frazetta was a reader. We know he was into baseball, comics, and art, but I don’t recall him mentioning any prose he read as a boy, which would rule out most Burroughs stuff (and, of course, Howard).
Nor do I know of him being much of a moviegoer.
In short, his paintings’ subjects are more likely to have come to him in adulthood than in childhood; your claim for the latter is without basis.
“As it stands, he definitely did build a career around rehashing kitsch adventure and horror material from his boyhood, whether he was into it back then or not.”
No, he didn’t. The properties Frazetta built his career around were novels and magazines of the ’60s: reprints of obscure ERB and REH stuff, along with tons of new stuff by authors of the day. Kitschy adventure and horror, sure… but I have no idea why you cling to this “boyhood” angle. Does it fit some Freudian model? In any case, it doesn’t fit the facts.
“If you don’t consider romantic power fantasies inverted expressions of insecurity, how do you interpret the resonance of Frazetta’s heroic adventure paintings, particularly given their widespread geek appeal?”
First, let’s not confuse a work’s appeal with its origins. Insecurity could attract geeks to Frazetta’s art without having inspired him to paint it. (As for its resonance, see my above comments to Noah.)
Second, an artist may paint something because he likes it, and not because he fears its absence. If I draw characters from Doctor Who, it doesn’t mean I fear whatever their absence would portend. (A dalek invasion?) Romantic power fantasies may be celebrations of power, sans insecurity.
Third, Frazetta’s work may indeed spring from insecurities. But it’s sloppy to leap to that conclusion by default.
“When I used the word exemplify, I didn’t mean it in the sense of being typical. I meant it in the sense of being an exemplar, i.e. the highest example.”
I’d thought you meant “most representative.” If by “highest” you do mean “most representative,” then I stand by my earlier criticisms of that standard.
But if by “the highest” you mean “the most excellent,” then your standard is circular: you’re defining an era’s best art as that which is the best.
“Um, Russ acknowledges that he’s never studied art history. As for his examples of Michelangelo’s pagan work, we’re not talking about anything even begins to approach the level or the renown of the Pietá, the David, or the Sistine Chapel ceiling.”
I don’t recall Russ denying that he studied art history. Nor did he claim Michelangelo’s pagan work was significant. He mentioned it in passing; you denied it ever existed; he cited some examples.
Domingos,
Race in Frazetta’s work was usually dictated by the works he was illustrating. In the examples you linked: the Asians were Asian in the novel, the Vikings were Vikings, those you supposed were Arabs were not Arab at all (that’s Conan, of a mythical race, fighting others of a mythical race).
Charles:
“[Mike] I love your (counter-intuitive) point about Frazetta’s misandry. Maybe he’s a misanthrope.”
He loved athletic, violent, Caucasian, “heroes” well enough…
Jesse:
No one can invent anything. People just assemble. Those fighting the mythical Scandinavian (or something close enough) in that image use scimitars and Oriental looking helmets. They may not be Arabs, but they surely *seem* Arabs (or Turks, or just Oriental).
As for the proto-Nazism of these images: Frank Frazetta could subvert the stories that he was illustrating and he didn’t. He made them his own, so, he was responsible for them…
Here’s what I wrote on my blog about Alex Raymond’s “Flash Gordon” (with minor changes): following the pseudo science of physiognomy many comics artists in Manichean children’s adventure comics used their characters’ outer appearance to convey their personality. This absurd theory is a caricature of science, of course, so, even if the image is not what I, for one, call “a caricature,” the use of physiognomy to tell a story is a narrative caricature through visual means (another problem that I have with “Flash Gordon” and other strips like it is how racist these comics are when beauty canons are chosen to combat evil: the hero is a blond, athletic, upper class, Caucasian stereotype, the villain, Ming, is the stereotype of a 19th century Chinese ruler).
It’s not much different in Frazetta’s case. I wrote elsewhere that comics during the thirties were defending pretty much the same racist colonialist, Imperialist, theories in New York as those ruling in Berlin. Frank Frazetta perpetuated them.
I strongly oppose your view of what constitutes a great artist. I agree with Noah that every attempt at describing what is and what isn’t geat art fails, so I will just say this: kitsch is not great art.
Jesse (and Charles): I didn’t say they were equally wicked. I said they were equally misogynist. I don’t think people do have a “little” contempt for women. I think some people just hide or temper their biases better than others. A “little bit” of contempt has a funny way of growing bigger when its legitimacy is challenged.
People can have contempt for specific women, based on specific things they do. But a misogynist bases that contempt on the fact that the person is a woman, nothing else. A misogynist either thinks of us as a group, contemptously, or that person isn’t a misogynist. There are indeed differences with regards to how much emotion an individual invests into that ideology and how the person acts on it.
But since misogyny defines women as a group, I think it is particularly appropriate to refuse to include those differences among individual misogynists as part of the definition of the term. Misogyny is not hatred or contempt for an individual woman. It’s hatred or contempt for women all together. Misogyny makes no distinction among us women: the “women are delicate” myth, for example, doesn’t consciously say “except for the cops, the soldiers, the body builders, the basketball players, etc.” It just says women shouldn’t do those jobs at all.
So I can’t imagine why you expect me to define “misogyny” in terms that allow more individual variance among men than misogynist men allow among women. That expectation, that I’ll accept a position that gives men more latitude than women in the same context? That’s what feminist jargon calls “patriarchy.”
=========
Charles: if misogyny comes from sexism, where does sexism come from?
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Caro says:
…Although I haven’t looked at enough Frazettas to have a meaningful opinion whether they’re overwhelmingly misogynist or not, part of my point is that any discussion of whether or not they’re misogynist won’t have anything to do with the motivations either of Frazetta for drawing them or of the characters in the painting for committing the actions that someone identified as misogynist.
The only thing relevant for saying “yes this is misogynist” or “no it isn’t” is the way in which the images participate in what Noah rightly described as the “system of oppression and control.” They’re either going to support that system, or undermine it:…
—————–
Oy! Who says the 60′s are over? This sounds like rhetoric from one of the ideologically-ludicrous, pontificating coffee-house “revolutionaries” of that era…
Those types maintaining that either you were an ideologically “right on” smash-the-establishment True Believer or “part of the problem”; no in-betweens allowed…
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4065/frazzlectured2.jpg
Jesse–
I would be justified in saying that Frazetta was fascinated by the executioner figure if he had done just one piece with that figure as a protagonist.
While the visual traits the Death Dealer has in common with the executioner may also be common to other warrior images, they are not, to the best of my knowledge, common to Frazetta’s warrior images. The Death Dealer, in my opinion, is a figure that synthesizes the executioner, the medieval armored knight, and the Conan-style adventurer. The figure has aspects in common with each of these antecedents. There are necessarily going to be differences with these antecedents as well.
I think my characterization of the Death Dealer as the executioner reimagined as a knight-errant holds up pretty well. It accounts for the synthesis of the various figures, and it also helps explain why the image is so appealing to some, and so repugnant to others. I think there’s a lot more going on in that image than it just being a representation of a particularly bad-ass warrior, even though I grant that Frazetta probably wasn’t consciously aware of it.
How do you explain its resonance? A competing interpretation that tries to account for the image’s power is probably going to be of much more interest than just dismissing mine.
Captive Princess is a rape fantasy. It’s a fictional scenario that portrays a woman who is about to be raped. I don’t know that the viewer is invited to imagine him or herself as a saviour. I first saw that piece when TCJ used it as the cover image for the Frazetta interview issue, and I was pretty disgusted that anyone would use that scenario for a stand-alone image. I was also quite embarrassed to take the issue to the check-out at the Barnes & Noble, because I couldn’t help but feel anxious about what the clerk would wonder about me upon seeing it. If Frazetta has turned out a more repellent painting, I don’t want to know about it.
I don’t know that I’ve criticized Frazetta for maintaining an interest in material that he may have first enjoyed while in elementary school. The criticism is that his work is of modest achievement because it does nothing more
than rehash juvenile kitsch entertainment. Whether he was into it when he himself was growing up is not really germane. Although I’d think more of him if he got hooked on that stuff as a kid. It’s kind of sad to think of him first getting fixated on it as an adult.
With regard to classic art, what I meant to say is that it is great becuase it is the work that epitomizes and is most identified with the cultural period in which it occurs. The work of Leonardo and Michelangelo is great because it epitomizes the values we identify with the Italian high renaissance, and concomitantly, it is the work we most identify with the period.
I am a pretty firm believer that if a work holds a particular psychological resonance, than it is a resonance that its creator identifies with to some (possibly unconscious) degree. Alan Moore highlighted this in his comment about Watchmen‘s Rorschach being taken somewhat differently by comics fans than what he intended. He said he never dreamed that if he made Rorschach smelly, lonely, alienated, and with a lousy sex life, that he would be creating a romantic figure for comics fans. However, he also acknowledged that comics fans wouldn’t have seen Rorschach that way if Moore didn’t find the character romantic on some level, although Moore felt it was more due to the character’s no-compromise tough-guy personality than his hygiene habits. Frazetta couldn’t give resonance to power-fantasy imagery if he didn’t identify with it on some level, and I think emotional insecurities are universally at the heart of that identification. I don’t think it’s anything to be ashamed of, by the way. I think those insecurities have been felt by just about every man at some time or another. It’s human.
Finally, Russ asked that we assume for the sake of argument that he never studied art history. Sorry for the error. As for my own statement that Michelangelo never painted or sculpted pagan subjects, I did write “as far as I know.” The pieces he mentioned weren’t at the forefront of my mind, and for various reasons, I think that’s quite understandable.
All right, people. This has gone far enough. I demand that I be allowed to write a response before four people write twelve paragraphs each.
I am going to go back and try to read the metastasizing thread again, now. If it continues to grow at this rate while I do so, I shall be cross.
All right, I am going to quixotically try to respond to the mountain of prose in dribs and drabs.
Jesse:
I’m sorry, I still don’t think you’ve made any effort to engage with Frazetta’s work on a conceptual level. Praising his vision without articulating what that vision is, or why you find it appealing, is basically a rejection of a conceptual approach, not an effort to wrestle with one. Basically you’re left with formal issues and a pseudo-mystical enthusiasm for personal vision which boils down to you saying you and other people like it a lot so it’s more worthwhile than other things which you and other people like less. That’s not an invalid position — you’re discussion of the formal aspects are lively and thoughtful, and a subjective “this is good because I say it is” stance isn’t refutable. But you haven’t done anything to suggest that Frazetta thought or did anything interesting with his material, and so, as someone who is not immediately swept away by Frazetta’s vision, I’m pretty much left where I was before — admiring his formal talent and enjoying the trashy fantasy imagery basically out of nostalgia, but not finding a whole lot else there to be excited about.
Also you’re discussion of audience identification (a conceptual and theoretical issue) is extremely naïve. Audiences can identify with a wide range of characters in a wide range of situations. Moreoever, there’s a long tradition of erotic imagery involving subhuman men and beautiful women, starting with satyrs and going on through the vile Jim Carey getting it on with the yummy Zoe Deschanel in “Yes Man.” Imagery around women being defiled is a staple of misogyny; so it the exciting frisson generated by the idea of a guy succeeding sexually with someone out of his league (either through rape or other means.) Letting Frazetta off the hook because his rapists aren’t heroes is spectacularly missing the point. Rape is appealing in large part because it’s not heroic.
Mike and Charles:
I don’t know that I can improve on Caro’s response. I guess in addition I would note that I don’t think the dictionary definition is especially helpful in this case. Misogyny is often used to mean essentially sexism, whatever the dictionary may argue. The difference is mainly that misogyny is meaner. Sexism sounds scientific and removed; misogyny suggests that the perpetrators are sinning.
Charles feels this is rhetorical overkill. Mike thinks it’s unfair to courtly old men, who, after all, are courtly, and old, and men, and who could not, therefore, have evil in their hearts.
For myself, I think sexism is evil, and that “misogyny” is a term which begins to get at the evil, and at the fact that the evil is not just systematic, but is personal. It is possible and even vital to make distinctions — to say, for example, that rape is worse than condescension. Neither Caro nor I are denying that. But the thing about evil is that it’s big, and it’s small — it’s in the heart of the world, and it’s in our hearts. But wherever you find it, it’s still evil. The point of that isn’t to make people guilty, or to force some old guy to say “mea culpa, I’m a racist!” The point is that evil is everybody’s problem always, wherever it is. You’re both in different ways trying to turn a sin into something that’s maybe unfortunate, but not that bad…it’s just like thinking you’re smarter than your cat, or it’s just the out-of-fashion courtliness of a kindly gent. But it’s neither of those things. It’s denying the humanity of other people because it’s convenient and it makes you feel good. That in itself is wrong; it’s misogyny.
The wheels are starting to spin and I still have to respond to a previous discussion I was having with Noah, so I’m bowing out.
Caro,
So I can’t imagine why you expect me to define “misogyny” in terms that allow more individual variance among men than misogynist men allow among women. That expectation, that I’ll accept a position that gives men more latitude than women in the same context? That’s what feminist jargon calls “patriarchy.”
Those questions are easy enough to answer: because I expect you’re a good deal more rational than misogynists. (I’m hoping you’re not defining that as patriarchal.)
If misogyny comes from sexism, where does sexism come from?
Aww, jesus. That’s just more than I wish to take on right now. I suspect it has a wide range of causes: structural, personal, accidental, etc.. I will note that I misspoke: I used causal language (“comes from”) when I should’ve more strictly stuck to categorial terms. It’s not like something called sexism exists, and then causes something called misogyny. The latter is a kind of the former.
Just to clarify: misogyny is sufficient for sexism, sexism isn’t sufficient for misogyny. Okay, now I’m out.
——————-
Robert Stanley Martin says:
…While the visual traits the Death Dealer has in common with the executioner may also be common to other warrior images, they are not, to the best of my knowledge, common to Frazetta’s warrior images.
——————
Can’t think of any other with a completely covered face or glowing eyes either…
——————
The Death Dealer, in my opinion, is a figure that synthesizes the executioner, the medieval armored knight, and the Conan-style adventurer. The figure has aspects in common with each of these antecedents. There are necessarily going to be differences with these antecedents as well.
I think my characterization of the Death Dealer as the executioner reimagined as a knight-errant holds up pretty well. It accounts for the synthesis of the various figures, and it also helps explain why the image is so appealing to some, and so repugnant to others. I think there’s a lot more going on in that image than it just being a representation of a particularly bad-ass warrior, even though I grant that Frazetta probably wasn’t consciously aware of it.
——————
Considering that, to my posting of this Frazetta drawing link… http://aaeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/DarTarusFrazetta.png , you replied,
——————-
That sacrifice picture looks like just another variation on the executioner theme. Only this time it’s a half-naked babe with a dagger instead of a big black-garbed guy with his face covered wielding an axe.
——————-
…sounds like you’ve got executioners on the brain!
——————-
How do you explain [the Death Dealer's] resonance?
——————-
‘Cos he looks really kewl?
(The original: http://usera.imagecave.com/bowly2003/newpics/FrazettaDeathDealer.jpg . Some of the sequels: http://11after11jc.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/frank-frazetta-death-dealer-02.jpg , http://lh4.ggpht.com/masterofmetalblog/Ri5vLqevOAI/AAAAAAAAAQs/m9ORr4OmG-s/frank_frazetta_deathdealerV.jpg . )
The glowing eyes adding an aura of the supernatural; the covered face – like that of Master Chief in the Halo game, those Mexican pro wrestlers, or Bobba Fett, who George Lucas had no idea would turn out to be so popular – making the figure mysterious, aiding audience identification. (“I can see myself under that helmet!”)
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Captive Princess is a rape fantasy. It’s a fictional scenario that portrays a woman who is about to be raped. I don’t know that the viewer is invited to imagine him or herself as a saviour. I first saw that piece when TCJ used it as the cover image for the Frazetta interview issue, and I was pretty disgusted that anyone would use that scenario for a stand-alone image. I was also quite embarrassed to take the issue to the check-out at the Barnes & Noble, because I couldn’t help but feel anxious about what the clerk would wonder about me upon seeing it.
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Haw! “Please don’t think I’m a politically-incorrect person!”
“Yeah, right! You men are all alike…”
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…All right, I am going to quixotically try to respond to the mountain of prose in dribs and drabs.
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(Lisa Simpson): Ewwww!!
(Irate Feminist): Isn’t that just like a man! Spraying his bodily fluids all over the place to mark territory and establish dominance…
(Doofus Stoner): Somebody needs some penicillin!
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I don’t know that I can improve on Caro’s response.
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Oy!
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I guess in addition I would note that I don’t think the dictionary definition is especially helpful in this case.
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Pesky dictionaries, getting in the way of words being what we think they should mean!
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Misogyny is often used to mean essentially sexism, whatever the dictionary may argue.
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Yes, and the term “environmentalists” is often used by right-wingers to mean “tree-hugging maniacs who hate the human race, consider the life of a mosquito as valuable as that of a person, and would like to send us back to the Stone Age.”
Whatever the dictionary may argue…
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The difference is mainly that misogyny is meaner. Sexism sounds scientific and removed; misogyny suggests that the perpetrators are sinning.
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Dunno about the religious “sinning” bit, but yes, misogyny – because of its standard usage, as shown by those dictionary definitions, as “hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women” – is a more harsh term.
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Charles feels this is rhetorical overkill. Mike thinks it’s unfair to courtly old men, who, after all, are courtly, and old, and men, and who could not, therefore, have evil in their hearts.
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Did I say he could not have evil in his heart? Nope; only that, it ain’t necessarily so. When I hold doors open for both men and women (if they’re reasonably close to my heels), if those folks were sufficiently paranoid, they could upbraid me for…
-showing off my “able-bodiedness”;
-condescendingly treating them as if they were incapable of opening the door themselves;
-acting in a proprietary fashion, as if it were my door, instead of that of the neighborhood Hardee’s;
-displaying my “privileged” position as a white male who ain’t that old;
…instead of just being courteous.
I remember the 60′s well, when youth were frothing about the “hypocrisy” of good manners, polite behavior. They can take a significant credit for the “fuck you” attitude so common in public these days.
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For myself, I think sexism is evil, and that “misogyny” is a term which begins to get at the evil, and at the fact that the evil is not just systematic, but is personal. It is possible and even vital to make distinctions — to say, for example, that rape is worse than condescension. Neither Caro nor I are denying that. But the thing about evil is that it’s big, and it’s small — it’s in the heart of the world, and it’s in our hearts. But wherever you find it, it’s still evil…
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One of the problems with that is it devalues the “moral currency.” If some chap being more fascinated with a woman’s knockers than her intellect is “evil,” what do we call genocide? “Super-evil”?
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The point of that isn’t to make people guilty, or to force some old guy to say “mea culpa, I’m a racist!” The point is that evil is everybody’s problem always, wherever it is. You’re both in different ways trying to turn a sin into something that’s maybe unfortunate, but not that bad…it’s just like thinking you’re smarter than your cat, or it’s just the out-of-fashion courtliness of a kindly gent. But it’s neither of those things. It’s denying the humanity of other people because it’s convenient and it makes you feel good. That in itself is wrong; it’s misogyny.
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My Significant Other has a fit whenever someone at a cash register or wherever tells her to “have a blessed day.”
She sees it as their shoving fundamentalist Christianity down her throat, being openly disrespectful of her beliefs.
I see it (though it would be a waste of time to argue so) as more likely a case of well-meaning Believers warmly wishing us their version of “have a nice day.” I take the remarks in the benevolent spirit in which they’re almost certainly given.
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Caro says:
If misogyny comes from sexism, where does sexism come from?
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Charles Reece says:
Aww, jesus. That’s just more than I wish to take on right now. I suspect it has a wide range of causes: structural, personal, accidental, etc…
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Lemme at it, lemme at it! (Hops into the ring)
Sexism comes from biology, from evolution. It’s a perpetuated outgrowth of factors such as:
-Males and females are different, with (as a group) differing strengths and weaknesses…
Doltish males argue, “we’re better because we’re stronger!” (But what about males’ shorter life spans, lesser resistance to pain, greater susceptibility to birth defects?) Feminists maintain that even to say men tend to have greater muscular strength than women (and thus are better suited to hunting wooly mammoths or fending off attackers) shows sexist bias, reality be damned.
-…and varying biological imperatives.
Why is it that, with more other mammals as well as humans, the nurturing instinct is far more greatly developed in females than in males? That males may go about impregnating females willy-nilly, while females don’t casually abandon their offspring? Consider the infinitely greater amount of “single mothers” compared to “single fathers.” And no, you can’t blame the custody-bestowing courts for all that.
-Even their brains are built differently, with differing strengths and weaknesses.
(See http://www.usnews.com/usnews/tech/nextnews/archive/next050121.htm and many other sites.) Which doesn’t mean one is better than the other overall, any more than, say, an athlete is “better” than a math whiz.
As for those brutish males carrying off captured females in those Frazetta paintings, that’s but a depiction of common behavior in less-civilized human societies throughout history.
(Too bad Frazetta wasn’t as interested in rendering subjects like an “Aesthetic Debate in the Court of Mme. Pompadour,” “The Mathematics Class,” or “Picturesquely Weatherbeaten Old Barn Door.”)
Perhaps the most famous example:
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The Rape of the Sabine Women is an episode in the legendary history of Rome in which the first generation of Roman men acquired wives for themselves from the neighboring Sabine families (in this context, [i]rape[/i] means abduction—[i]raptio[/i]—rather than its prevalent modern meaning of sexual violation)
…it provided a subject for Renaissance and post-Renaissance works of art that combined a suitably inspiring example of the hardihood and courage of ancient Romans with the opportunity to depict multiple semi-clothed figures in intensely passionate struggle.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
Again, human behavior echoes that of animals. As the wealthy Arab of yore has his harem, so does a lion keep a bunch of females in his pride. Do not female animals routinely act hard-to-get, while males must show off and strut to attract their attention?
Re the angry, yammering Tasmanian Devil, Wikipedia tells us:
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Males fight over females in the breeding season, and female devils will mate with the dominant male. Devils are not monogamous, and females will mate with several males if not guarded after mating.
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Hummph! Do these “guarded” females (as I recall from a nature documentary, kept captive by the male in an enclosure built of mud and his feces) not remind of the harem in the seraglio?
Why, even that New Age icon of gentleness, the bottle-nosed dolphin, has been reported as capturing females for use as “sex slaves”…
Mike: humans aren’t animals and legendary depictions aren’t proof of actual historical events.
In the insect world, females often devour their mates. However, if human females devoured their mates, I have no doubt that you would protest. Looking for moral analogies in animal behavior is a staple of misogynistic thinking, and long has been. It’s also just silly.
“Feminists maintain that even to say men tend to have greater muscular strength than women…”
Which feminists say this, Mike? I can’t think of any; even radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin don’t as far as I know.
The dicitonary is a book written by people, not a compilation of inarguable facts.
…sounds like you’ve got executioners on the brain!
Well, someone certainly did.
Click here for another Death Dealer image. Note that the axe was used to behead the antagonist.
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robert stanley martin says:
Click here [ http://www.themook.net/blog/wp-content/plugins/random-image-widget/images/frazetta_death_dealer_4.jpg ] for another Death Dealer image. Note that the axe was used to behead the antagonist.
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As opposed to what, stab him? Axes are used to chop up an opponent; hacking away heads and limbs is standard operating procedure.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…humans aren’t animals…
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Denial of the obvious roots of so much of our behavior in animal instinct is behind the failure of a thousand well-intentioned ideologies.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to rise above our more primitive desires and motivations; but that to utterly deny them, and pretend that we’ve gone past all that, is ludicrous.
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In the insect world, females often devour their mates. However, if human females devoured their mates, I have no doubt that you would protest. Looking for moral analogies in animal behavior is a staple of misogynistic thinking, and long has been. It’s also just silly.
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I bring up “other mammals” for comparisons of human behavior; you jump to insects to make my argument seem “just silly.” Why not go all the way to unicellular organisms?
And Darwin’s writings on evolution were used to justify “social Darwinism,” where the poor were considered inferior specimens better left to die, White supremacy, and eugenics. Does that, then, invalidate “On the Origin of Species”? Make the whole evolution thing “silly”?
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“Feminists maintain that even to say men tend to have greater muscular strength than women…”
Which feminists say this, Mike? I can’t think of any; even radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin don’t as far as I know.
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In my many readings about feminism, thirty-something years ago – books and issues of “Ms.” – could swear I’d run across such arguments. Now it looks like I either “misremembered” or haven’t found the right word-combo to Google up that info. So I’ll cede the point to you…
Some stuff I ran across whilst looking:
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A woman reading Playboy feels a little like a Jew reading a Nazi manual. ~Gloria Steinem
The only jobs for which no man is qualified are human incubators and wet nurse. Likewise, the only job for which no woman is or can be qualified is sperm donor. ~Wilma Scott Heide
When a woman behaves like a man, why doesn’t she behave like a nice man? ~Edith Evans
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http://www.quotegarden.com/feminism.html
Gad; “Playboy” is like a “Nazi manual?? The slavering hatred of that treacherous scourge of humanity, the Jewish “race,” as expressed by Nazi rags, has its counterpart in softly-lit Playmates posing prettily in the buff, with attached info about their lives, likes and dislikes, to further humanize them?
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The dicitonary is a book written by people, not a compilation of inarguable facts.
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What a dictionary is – and if it is not that, it is valueless – is a collection of the culturally agreed-upon meanings of words.
My point with bringing up dictionary definitions is, how can people discuss or debate a topic, if one side considers a word to mean X, and another that it means Y?
In politics, we see one side defining “patriotism” as mindless, unquestioning support of a leader (as long as he’s of their side too) and his policies; another thinks of the term as meaning support for the principles and ideals that a country is supposed to stand for, which means protesting when those are violated.
Which, really, tells a lot about the mindset of the “definers.”
Looking at that TCJ cover which featured Frazetta’s “Captive Princess” – http://web.tiscalinet.it/ffantasy/Frazetta/captiveprincess.jpg – I see a woman in peril, being captured by subhumans; appreciate the way her form swoops across the canvas in a pale arc.
Some of us see a woman about to be raped, period.
In the same way, alas, that any non-parental male paying any attention whatsoever to a child these days will be automatically considered by many a slavering pedophile. If I see a lost child crying for his or her Momma, rather than try and help and get strung up by a mob (“He was talking to that child!!!”), I’ll run the other way…
Hey Mike. I think, as Charles said, we’re kind of spinning out wheels here at this point. As I”ve had to acknowledge before, your endurance is greater than mine!
But wait, I’m not done yet! Some more – mostly – “Frazetta art related stuff:
That “Captive Princess” painting sure looks like a cover for an an Edgar Rice Burroughs book. (I bought a paperback featuring that painting when it first came out, but canna recall its author.) Didn’t he have at least one novel featuring a race of humans where the men were all apelike, the women all beautiful and homo sapiens-like?
(But, if she’s a princess and thus likely of a temperament or training to rule, endowed with higher intelligence due to being further up the evolutionary ladder, could she not end up ruling her kidnappers? Being worshiped by them?)
Ah! Indeed (as the collection of Frazetta art for ERB books at http://www.dantonburroughs.com/ff/erb.html informs), it was for ERB’s “The People that Time Forgot.”
And…
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In Edgar Rice Burroughs’s Tarzan series, the people of the lost city of Opar consist of a tribe of stunted, hairy, almost apelike men ruled over by a beautiful, entirely human-looking woman. It’s implied that the inhabitants degenerated by mating with great apes, but somehow the degeneration didn’t affect females the way it did males.
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More examples of “Bizarre Sexual Dimorphism” at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BizarreSexualDimorphism …
More about Opar at http://www.erbzine.com/mag19/1937.html , including another artist’s depiction of the guy about to be sacrificed by a hot babe which someone else here saw, naturally, as an executioner. (Sure, she’s not hooded, doesn’t have the stereotypical axe, is sacrificing rather than executing; what’s the diff?)
I put together a couple of comparisons of others’ illos of ERB scenes with those by Frazetta: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7063/frazettacompared.jpg . The latter’s far stronger and simpler compositions, the sculptural quality of his figures, making them clearly more striking and powerful. (If less subtle and complex.)
Robert,
“I don’t know that I’ve criticized Frazetta for maintaining an interest in material that he may have first enjoyed while in elementary school. The criticism is that his work is of modest achievement because it does nothing more than rehash juvenile kitsch entertainment. Whether he was into it when he himself was growing up is not really germane.”
That’s some furious backpeddling. From your essay:
“My main reservation about Frazetta’s paintings, apart from the general antipathy to the sword and sorcery adventure material so many of them exemplified, is that even when the subjects are ostensibly original, they’re just him rehashing the entertainment of his youth — Edgar Rice Burroughs novels, Robert E. Howard pulp stories, 1930s monster movies.”
You explicitly set aside the obvious complaint that his paintings are kitschy, to focus on your “main” reservation: that they are rehashes of his boyhood entertainment. You return to this claim again (“rehashes of the entertainment of Frazetta’s boyhood. That is what they are at heart”) and, in your comments, again (“His career was devoted to rehashing the tropes of popular entertainment from his childhood and adolescence”). Why it was important to you to date his subject matter to his childhood, I don’t know. Me, I don’t care where we date Frazetta’s interaction with that material, as long as the scholarship is accurate. But since it wasn’t in this case, I’m glad you’ve abandoned that effort.
I agree that Frazetta must have identified with the power-fantasies he depicted, but you still haven’t explained why you think insecurities (which I agree aren’t shameful) are at the heart of that identification. You continually assume, apparently without any reason, that power fantasy necessarily implies insecurity.
“Letting Frazetta off the hook because his rapists aren’t heroes is spectacularly missing the point. Rape is appealing in large part because it’s not heroic.”
I would think rape is appealing because it implies superiority. Characterizing would-be rapists as doofy apes, as in the example you cited, does not grant them superiority. It’s a rescue fantasy — “A woman imperiled by subhuman beasts! Oh no!” (Incidentally, she is rescued in the story, and it’s hard to imagine that causing the average reader disappointment, Frazetta included.)
“I would be justified in saying that Frazetta was fascinated by the executioner figure if he had done just one piece with that figure as a protagonist.”
First of all, this is the dumbest thing I’ve seen all month, and I visit YouTube. “Fascinating” means it holds your attention. You can’t credit an artist with a fascination if he’s drawn the thing once and abandoned it. That’s boredom.
Second, it’s debatable whether Frazetta ever drew an executioner as a protagonist, even once. His few executioners appear to me to be antagonists.
Your citation of the Death Dealer as an executioner says more about your notion of that character than Frazetta’s. (Of course he cut an opponent’s head off with his battle-axe; that’s one of the likeliest uses for a battle-axe.) What would relate the DD to executioners in a relevant way is not an axe, but judicial and social sanction. This was the focus of your “executioner” theory of the character’s appeal, so you’d need to establish that connection for your theory to hold up.
It’s worth adding that after painting the first DD, Frazetta didn’t bother to return to the character for a quarter of a century, and then only by commercial request.
“With regard to classic art, what I meant to say is that it is great becuase it is the work that epitomizes and is most identified with the cultural period in which it occurs. The work of Leonardo and Michelangelo is great because it epitomizes the values we identify with the Italian high renaissance, and concomitantly, it is the work we most identify with the period.”
“Epitomizes” begs the question as to what made their work great. Of works that celebrated contemporary values (i.e., every work of the period), theirs is the best because it is the epitome? That’s circular. What made it the epitome?
Domingos,
“Those fighting the mythical Scandinavian (or something close enough) in that image use scimitars and Oriental looking helmets. They may not be Arabs, but they surely *seem* Arabs (or Turks, or just Oriental).”
There’s nothing in that painting to distinguish Conan ethnically or culturally from his opponents. Everyone has a hodge-podge of weapons and armor suitable to the fantasy setting. Your efforts to shoehorn some kind of racism in there are frankly bizarre.
Noah,
“I’m sorry, I still don’t think you’ve made any effort to engage with Frazetta’s work on a conceptual level.”
I’m not sure what private meaning you attach to the word “conceptual,” if your definition precludes fidelity to one’s vision.
“Fidelity to one’s own vision” is contentless, Jesse. It’s romantic blather. What is the vision? What does that vision mean? You still have said nothing to indicate what you think Frazetta’s artwork says, what ideas he was in conversation with, what he meant it to do or be or think. Saying it’s “true to his vision” without attempting to articulate that vision is anti-conceptual, not conceptual.
You don’t have to be interested in an art’s conceptual oomph — you could be entirely wedded to formal issues. This in fact seems to be the case, and fair enough. I’m just saying that, for folks like me, who tend to react to art at least in part on a conceptual level, Frazetta doesn’t have much to offer (beyond the pretty pictures and the nostalgia, both of which I appreciate.)
I don’t know; as an example, in my recent review of Gantz, I argued that the book’s vision involved a sense of reality as friable and unknowable; it’s a PKD sci-fi idea which equates the way that sci-fi worlds fall apart with the way that the real world doesn’t make sense.
What you’re refusing to say about Frazetta is that his “unique vision” is, conceptually, basic dumb pulp paganism — strong men battling for glory and pretty girls. There’s nothing personal or unique about that vision — it’s standard adolescent power fantasy crap. Gantz (which also works from power fantasies) is a lot weirder and more idiosyncratic conceptually in that it, at least implicitly, suggests that the power fantasies are empty; that they come out of and go into nothing.
So is Gantz better than Frazetta? I’d say no; Frazetta’s formal skills and the enthusiasm with which he grabs hold of the power fantasies win me over, at least on balance. But conceptually, Gantz is better. I thought that, as a fan of Frazetta, you might be able to explain why you thought Frazetta was more interesting conceptually than I see him as being. But obviously conceptual issues aren’t really something you think about at all in relation to art — which explains why Frazetta seems like a much better artist to you than he does to me.
“I would think rape is appealing because it implies superiority. ”
You can think what you’d like, obviously, but there are shelves and shelves and shelves of books about misogyny, violence, and audience identification which disagree with you. Yes, rape is about power — but that works out in lots of ways other than just rescue fantasies. I’d suggest you start with “Men, Women, and Chainsaws,” which is great on the different ways audience identification and cross-identification can work. You could also look at discussions of sadism in, say, the work of Hitchcock. Often rape or misogyny is about defilement; the point is that the woman *starts out* superior, and is then dragged down by the act of rape to a lesser status. Thus the charge of the subhuman rape; you can identify with the monstrous attackers pulling something pure down to their own level and below.
Another thing to think about; men in porn have traditionally been much less attractive than the women. There are various possible reasons — men are less interested in looking at pretty men; men don’t really want to be thinking about competitors when they’re watching porn. Just because the men in question are not especially attractive, though, doesn’t mean that the men watching aren’t getting off on rape fantasies.
Again, suggesting that it’s not a rape fantasy because the folks looking at it can’t possibly identify with the monster is extremely dubious. People’s range of identification is extremely plastic — and one location where a watcher may locate himself is simply as a voyeur. That is, you don’t need to see yourself as the monster; you can see yourself as the person watching the monster performing the rape. Or you can switch back and forth between various perspectives (including identifiying with the girl being raped, a not-uncommon male fantasy.)
Jesse: “There’s nothing in that painting to distinguish Conan ethnically or culturally from his opponents. Everyone has a hodge-podge of weapons and armor suitable to the fantasy setting. Your efforts to shoehorn some kind of racism in there are frankly bizarre.”
The axe vs. the scimitar: the axe is a traditional Northern European medieval weapon; ditto the scimitar as a traditional medieval Northern African and Middle East weapon.
The historically false, but true in the people’s imagination, horned helmet as a Scandinavian medieval military trait vs. the Oriental looking helmets.
I committed a mistake above, sorry. Conan is brandishing an hatchet, but my point stands as the Bayeux tapestry clearly shows. Also, the flying axe means that the attacked warrior doesn’t know how to use it. He’s at close range and such a big axe needs a certain space between a warrior and his victim in order to be effective. Another indication of what I’m saying is that, since the horde attacks as an inept pack (another Oriental stereotype) vs. the individual Western hero, the stupid warrior would have killed his mates if brandishing the axe properly.
Jesse, I just wanted to add — a rape-rescue fantasy is still a rape fantasy. That is, the point surely is the excitement of the rape (or almost-rape) combined with the excitement of the rescue, not just the latter.
Jesse–
I think you’re a lot more hung up on the subject of Frazetta’s boyhood than I am, and you’re projecting it onto me. I really don’t care. I acknowledge that I jumped to a conclusion, although I feel it was a reasonable one, and I don’t disavow it. However, if you want to claim that Frazetta never saw or otherwise had any interest in such juvenile material until he was in his late thirties, fine.
Power fantasies and insecurities are two sides of the same coin. I postulate that you cannot have the first without the latter. If one is confident and secure, one doesn’t find gratification in fantasies that encourage identification with a figure more powerful and effective than oneself.
As for the executioner, it held Frazetta’s attention long enough to do, not one, but at least four pieces featuring the figure. (We don’t know how many times he revisited the image in unreleased work.) He conceived and carried out these works, and then marketed them to the public. In doing the latter, he invited the public to identify him with that image. If he didn’t want the public identifying him with that image, he wouldn’t have marketed pieces featuring it. If he wasn’t fascinated by it on some level, he wouldn’t have done those pieces in the first place.
The word protagonist means main or central character. The root meaning is “first combatant.” A protagonist can be a villain. Just consider Shakespeare’s Richard III.
What relates the Death Dealer to the executioner is that Frazetta portrays him with several visual characteristics that recall the executioner, such as the black garb, the concealed face, and the use of an axe as a preferred weapon. I never said the Death Dealer operated with state sanction. I wrote that he was a knight-errant; he acts on his own volition, not the state’s.
Actually Frazetta revisited the Death Dealer in a series of paintings between 1986 and 1988, 13-15 years after the original was done. Why does something tell me that if you had caught me making a mistake like that, I’d have been hearing about it in every comment you posted?
Leonardo and Michelangelo’s major work epitomizes Italian High Renaissance art because that is the consensus view that has developed over the centuries. And our cultural make-up is such that that view resonates with us today.
Man, it’s kind of Jesse against all comers here.
I don’t know if I said this, but like Robert I thought your piece on Frazetta was very thoughtful, and pointed out many things about his art that I hadn’t thought of. All of which is to say, I do appreciate your coming over here to continue this conversation — and I hope the whole thing hasn’t been too frustrating (for you or for Robert.)
Does anybody know anything about that last image, of the leprechaun with the beer? It doesn’t have a caption or a date.
To Noah’s point about conceptual issues here, there’s a pretty significant shift in character between the 1954 image and the 1966 one: it matches up with this point that “Frazetta got into these mythic fantasies as an adult” but it’s also worth noting that both are very emblematic of their historical moments. The leprechaun surely dates to the ’60s with that mushroom: but what’s the context?
There was a lot of this kind of mythic-fantasy masculinity in pop culture in the ’60s, not just in comics – Led Zeppelin comes to mind.
Does anybody on the thread have any real answers for Noah’s question about what this art was actually in conversation with, at the time? It seems like it might be illustrative for exploring how this type of fantasy imagery shifted in pop culture from being something associated with the hippie and post-hippie counterculture to something associated in the 80s with heavy metal…
Zeppelin’s a great touchstone there. They were big old Tolkien hippies…and Tolkien remains a big deal for Black Metal especially (Urgehal, for example, is a black metal group who takes their name from Tolkien.)
I can’t see Zeppelin using the leprechaun in that way exactly…though maybe Comus could have….
Hey Noah — yup, that’s basically why I was asking for more info about the leprechaun — it’s out of place. But kinda cute – I love the ‘shroom. :)
Caro–
The leprechaun piece was featured in Frazetta’s Pillow Book monograph, which was published in early 1994. It collected watercolor art that Frazetta had done as gifts for family and friends. Most of the pieces in it are undated, but those that are (with one exception) were produced between 1983 and 1992. I don’t think there’s any link to the 1960s or drug culture. Large mushrooms for sitting appear in Frazetta’s work as early as 1949. I think they’re just a bit of romantic-fantasy exaggeration.
As for your question about the conceptual differences between the comics art and the later paintings, well, one of the problems in talking about Frazetta’s body of work is that he was a journeyman illustrator pretty much through the 1960s. It can get a little tricky to say to what extent certain work is an example of him following his own muse. From about the mid-Sixties on, though, Frazetta was in a position to refuse commissions, and he gravitated toward projects (such as his covers for the Warren magazines and the Conan paperbacks) where he was more or less given carte blanche and allowed to own the underlying copyright for the images. That work and everything that followed we can pretty safely say is an expression of his own sensibility.
The work before then has to be looked at a bit differently. The ’50s comics panels are from commissioned work that was scripted without a specific illustrator in mind. In the case of “Squeeze Play” at least, Frazetta actually had to fit the drawings around the copy. There’s a verve to the “Squeeze Play” and romance art that suggests they excited his imagination to a substantial degree, but one can’t really say that he chose to do this work instead of adventure material. He wasn’t working with anything like the conceptual freedom Pollock had when doing his drip paintings. In those days, if the money was green, Frazetta was there. Not much else mattered.
As for Frazetta’s connection to rock, I believe it’s an example of two ships meeting that were going in different directions. I don’t think Frazetta was a rock fan himself. He was born in 1928, so he was deep into his twenties when it first hit. He was a bit too old to get its appeal. He did license several of his paintings for rock bands to use for album covers and promotional materials, but I think the motive was more financial than borne of regard for the music.
By the way, I included the leprechaun because I’ve always gotten a chuckle out of it, and everyone I know who’s seen it has laughed as well. It’s probably my favorite single Frazetta image. I thought it would make a cute coda for the essay.
Frazetta on his music tastes, from his 1994 interview with Gary Groth:
FRAZETTA: I also had a lot to do with the selection of music [in the Fire and Ice film]. Ralph [Bakshi, the director] wanted hard rock. Maybe I’m too conservative — I wanted classical music. So we got a guy to do that, and I even described to him the composers I liked, what kind of technique and style, and he did a good job. I think it lends a little more seriousness to it. The rock…I could be wrong, maybe the rock approach might’ve been cool, who knows?
GROTH: You’ve never been a rock fan.
FRAZETTA: No. Come on! Goddamn, I’m an old man! [Groth laughs.] Even if I was young, I doubt that I’d like it. Even as a kid I liked the most serious stuff. I like talent. You know? Talent. If a rock star shows me he has honest-to-God talent, I’ll listen. But 99 percent of them are terrible. That’s the way I feel about it. I like pop music and classical music, and I don’t think I was very unusual for back then. I was not an Elvis Presley fan. He had talent, I guess, but I didn’t think he had any kind of voice.
GROTH: You were never taken by him. But when Presley came on the scene, you were in your late 20s.
FRAZETTA: I was 21 or 22. [Frazetta was actually 28 when Presley hit the national music scene with "Heartbreak Hotel" in 1956.]
GROTH: A pretty young guy.
FRAZETTA: Yeah, I was young.
GROTH: You should have been perfect for him.
FRAZETTA: Yeah, but I wasn’t. I was a Sinatra fan. They’re quite different! [Laughs.] I grew up loving Sinatra in the ’40s. He had a magnificent voice. There were many good singers. Then in walks this guy: wiggling his hips…I never thought he had much of a voice to speak of. He was a great looking guy and I could see why the girls were screaming, but I didn’t.
And hey, that’s criticism in an interview! Really shallow and bone-headed criticism, maybe, but criticism nonetheless….
Noah, you have to be joking. Shallow and bone-headed indeed.
Robert – Thanks very much for the context for that image. I agree it’s a cute coda. I’d be very curious, though, to see the sitting mushrooms from the ’50s and ’60s if he did them then too…
I don’t know that it matters to what I’m interested in either way what Frazetta’s sensibility was or whether it was a commission or not: the ways in which popular art reflects and refracts the preoccupations of its time are, at least to some extent, independent of the individual. It’s a data point, but it’s not a conclusive one.
I mean it’s conclusive for a biographer, but not for a critic. The critic has to make a distinction between the work and the artist: the artist is one data point in the analysis of the art, not the threshhold of possibility for that analysis.
So even if Frazetta was personally uninterested in rock music (as he obviously was), if he and Led Zeppelin were exploring the same themes, then they’re related and the comparison could be illustrative. And, to draw on biography as a data point, I think in this case in particular, the fact that Frazetta was both serious and older makes it likely that his ability to articulate the trends that were informing Zeppelin may have been greater. At least, that’s what I was hoping for when I raised the point.
What’s interesting to me is the concept of “mythic masculinity” qua itself as a cultural touchstone in the ’50s-’70s, not any particular artist’s interpretation of it. For me, Art, popular art especially, teaches us about our culture, rather than the other way around (where you use culture and biography to explain art).
I wasn’t exactly joking I don’t think…that discussion of Elvis makes my stomach hurt.
But so it goes; I probably have more invested in the analysis of early rockabilly than anybody else on the thread is likely to….
More than me, surely. You should tell us the current critical consensus on early rockabilly sometime.
I tend to systematically suspend critical judgment when it comes to music. Music videos I’ll analyze, and performers, but rarely songs themselves, unless it’s music as one piece of a bigger cultural puzzle (like the mythic masculinity thing.)
It’s probably because my tastes are more like Frazettas, and does anybody really want to read a detailed close-reading of The Ventures’ cover of Classical Gas? I think not. I’m not even sure what that would be…
Well, just for starters, the Elvis/Sinatra thing is about a race/class/rural-urban divide pretty clearly. In some ways it seems to reinforce aspects of Frazetta’s own work (the hints of unfortunate racial politics that Domingos points to); on the other hand it seems to cut against Frazetta’s other interests (Elvis’ masculinity is a lot rawer than Sinatra’s…though Elvis also toyed with androgyny in a way that might have been off-putting.)
But yeah, Gary and Frazetta are both just shooting the shit about a topic that neither knows or cares about all that intently. Which is fine, and obviously it’s interesting in terms of telling us about Frazetta’s interests or lack thereof.
I can see that. I would say race/class before rural and urban…at least in the south there was a rural ‘elite’ who would have fallen into the same pattern as the urban folks.
On this one especially, i will side with alex on the ‘raw material’ front, at best.
Caro–
I can’t really be of much help on those counts. You’re asking for a culture-criticism perspective on the material, and that just isn’t my forte. I’m very grounded in approaches that are rooted in New Criticism (or Old Criticism, as one professor of mine liked to call it) and Common-Reader aesthetic evaluation. It’s a perspective that’s notoriously unsuited to relating work to a larger zeitgeist. Relating cultural discourses to a work is a one-way street with me; I can analyze a piece in terms of a defined cultural discourse, but I can rarely discern an undefined discourse from a piece. Sorry. If you consider my point of view stunted, I understand that. It’s a valid criticism to make.
I’ll e-mail you a jpeg of a ’49 fantasy oil in which Frazetta included giant mushrooms. I’m pretty sure you can also find them in panels from the ’50s EC science-fiction strips that Frazetta assisted Al Williamson on. They were a pretty common motif in Williamson’s s-f art throughout his career.
I don’t dislike Elvis, but I prefer Sinatra, too.
Hey Robert. No reason for everyone to do the same thing! It’d be a boring world if they did.
Caro, the rural/urban is really important, actually. Hillbilly records and race records were united in appealing to/being created by rural folks of both races. That was in distinction to jazz and pop, which had a moral urban focus. Elvis was about the sudden realization that the rural, less classy stuff (black and white) could be incredibly successful — even more so than the urban.
Class matters too, and I”m sure there were rural southern elites who listened to other things — but if it’s just class you miss the way that, say, Louis Armstrong looked down on music by someone like Clifford Hayes. (There’s a great anecdote about Armstrong ribbing Earl Hines about playing with Hayes.)
I don’t know the actual breakdown of Elvis’ early fans, but I suspect they were mostly white, as were Sinatra’s. Similarly, there were a lot of working class Italians who loved the latter. I’ll buy the regional divide, though.
And Frazetta’s full of shit. Elvis is every bit the singer/interpreter that Sinatra was. (But I prefer Sinatra, too.)
I’m sure Elvis’ fans were mostly (though not entirely) white — but the tradition he came out of was as much black as white (not more black than white as is sometimes averred, but as much.)
I like Elvis better…at least the early sides. But Sinatra’s great too, of course!
Yeah, early Elvis is great. I prefer his versions of those songs to the originals. My blues-obsessed friends hate when I say that. And I love the polished Elvis almost as much as the earlier form. But, I agree, even the socalled authentic blues mixed white in, too (John Hurt, for example, didn’t just do black songs).
Anyway, it’s interesting that Sinatra has become more respectable over time, forgetting that he, too, was “just a” pop artist.
I find blues fairly dull often, honestly. I agree that Elvis’ mixed race take on that tradition (or Chuck Berry’s, or John Hurt’s) are more surprising and enjoyable.
Though it’s also true that the tradition was kind of mixed from the start. THe hard core line between white and black was really a marketing phenomena…which then became more or a reality as the genre’s solidified.
We’re a long way from Frazetta now, aren’t we. Though obviously the goal now is just to see if we can keep this comments thread going forever….
Well, maybe that’s a problem with focusing on the cultural implications of art, rather than the art. I’m okay with that, but I bet Jesse isn’t.
I can come up with a Frazetta analogy re. the other Frank: Sinatra. His style of music lets me completely cold (just like Frazetta’s fantasy), but I find him an amazing actor (and I find acting in singers as important as timbre, etc…). So, my question to you is this: was he as good an actor singing as he was acting? I sincerely don’t have an opinion, that’s why I’m asking.
Elvis on the other hand…
Domingos, if you admitted to liking Elvis I think my head would explode. You don’t want that on your conscience, surely.
The acting question is interesting. I’d say that there is a closer connection between the more sophisticated pop styles and theater acting than there is between theater and the rural traditions Elvis came out of. Obviously there’s a major performance element in Elvis too, but it’s less about adopting characters in a narrative and more about dramatic presentation of masculinity (maybe?)
You know Sinatra was a huge Billie Holiday fan, right?
Nope, but it’s good to know, thanks.
What a load of psuedo-intellectual horseshit. Those of a certain type always applying sensibilities from one era to another when it suits them. No doubt that if Frazetta had been of a certain ethnic group, some of the more negative posters would instead be praising him to the high heavens, such is their self-deception.
“psuedo-intellectual” [sic]
What a complete and totally piece of Leftist Liberal Progressive Democratic Trope & horseshit! Gee Whiz, man, look at it for what it is…FREAKING ART!, and leave all the self-loathing, delusional, Leftist psycho-babble angst manure out of it…complete and total nonsense, and so totally typical of the self-centered introspective auto-flatulent smelling morons that have ruined this country….
Heh! Welcome, Dale. From your comments, if you want to want to get your blood pressure dangerously raised, this is the right place…
Innerestin’ to revisit this piece; weird to encounter old comments I’d made and forgotten.
At the risk of rehashing some stuff:
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…Warfare is an important part of the human experience, but peace is on the whole more typical. If it weren’t, we’d probably all be dead. So choosing to focus on violence and war isn’t a objective historical truth. It’s a value judgment in itself.
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So if a historian pens a tome on war because the find its sociological ramifications telling, or a fantasy artist focuses on “violence and war” because it’s more dramatic a subject than reading books or eating cheese, does that indicate approval?
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Besides, Frazetta isn’t reporting on violence as a dispassionate observer…That’s why the warrior is bad ass. You can’t have it both ways. Either the warrior is cool or war is just a fact, neither cool nor un.
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So you “have” to choose either one simplistic approach to war or the other? Either approvingly “gung-ho” or neutral?
B’sides, doesn’t Frazetta frequently show the victims of his bad-ass warriors as pitifully humanized victims, therefore adding a bit of moral complexity to the carnage?
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I think Frazetta fans, and perhaps Frazetta himself, like to believe that they’re reacting to something primal and authentic in looking at his work. But I look at it and I just see tropes; fanciful creations based on post-enlightenment ideas about paganism and the authenticity of the primitive which could only gain currency in a non-pagan, not at all primitive society.
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There are primal emotions and fantasies in his work, as well as a batch of tropes at work.
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Caro says:
“Underestimating women is as misogynistic as wanting to rape them?”
Yes. One is just violent and the other isn’t. Violent misogyny is demonstrably worse than non-violent misogyny, but because violence is demonstrably worse than non-violence, not because being non-violent makes the misogyny better.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
That’s an elegant formulation Caro.
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Utter nonsense, but “elegant” in its simple-mindedness.
From various definitions:
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Misogyny (pron.: /m??s?d??ni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls
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mi·sog·y·ny
Hatred of women.
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mi•sog•y•ny
hatred of or hostility toward women.
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Misogyny
The hatred of women and/or the overall feminine expression.
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So if you “underestimate” a group, that means you hate it. OK…
The typical attitude of one of the groups of “professional victims.” In order to prove the rightness of you cause, and how you’re more-victimized-than-thou (despite the countless concessions and advances made by society), one must absurdly expand the parameters of your victimization; even if it ends up by association making your more solid, serious grievances look trivial by association.
But aren’t there reasons why one could have substantial reasons for “underestimating” the capabilities of a group (note that this leaves room for occasional exceptions)? And yet, not hate them?
Say, “underestimating” the capabilities of…
-Hormone-addled teenagers to make sexually-responsible decisions
-Uptight oldsters to judge the wit of a corrosive, iconoclastic, obscenely witty comedian
-Victorians to appreciate the aesthetics of “Les Demoiselles D’Avignon”
-African tribals to fully “get” Shakespeare (Baffled at seeing “Romeo and Juliet,” one tribe decided the doomed lovers must have been bewitched; else why would they possibly have gone against the loyalties to their own families?)
-Jocks and fratboys to be moved by lyric poetry or genteel watercolors of flower arrangements
-A woman raised in a “traditional” society whose upbringing has wholly focused on developing her capabilities as Mother and Housewife, to the detriment of all else
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Charles Reece says:
To both Mike and Caro,
…I think the word y’all want here is ‘sexism’. It requires less theoretical noodling to justify its usage in the case of someone like Frazetta. Not all sexism is misogyny.
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Yeah, “sexism” covers a far wider range of behavior; though noxious, is not necessarily hate-filled…
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Caro says:
I wouldn’t say that the [June] Cleaver situation isn’t misogynist. I’d say that the whole culture was misogynist. That situation was an entire SOCIETY stacked against poor June — what else was she supposed to do but make the best of it?
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So I guess no woman in the 1950s was possibly able to be ANYTHING other than a Happy Homemaker, right? Because of all that awful sexism — oh, excuse me, “misogyny” — they couldn’t be anything BUT helpless, passive victims.
Funny how those oh-so-righteous defenders of victimized groups end up infantilizing them; absolving them of all responsibility, dismissing their possibility of agency:
“The situation is an entire racist SOCIETY stacked against those poor young black males — what else are they supposed to do but turn to crime?”
“And if they’re bound to become criminals because this society is so utterly racist, I should hire them because…?”
Except that, as usual, things were more complicated than that:
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For many Americans, the 1950s evokes images of tree-lined streets, kids riding their bikes through pristine neighborhoods and women in heels and skirts making dinner, vacuuming the house and doing the wash; televisions shows of the era like the “Donna Reed Show”, “Leave it to Beaver”, and “Father Knows Best”, reinforce these stereotypes. As a result, many believe that women seldom worked outside the home during that decade.
In some ways this belief is not completely inaccurate because there were strong cultural forces that advocated for women to remain in the home. However, because of labor shortages during World War II many women had entered the workforce. and in the post-war era they continued to work for various reasons although many were forced to move into more traditional fields.
External forces and internal needs shaped women’s participation in the workforce during the 1950s. During the first half of the decade shortages in professions traditionally populated by women (like nursing, teaching, social work, stenography, and typing) drove employment agencies to recruit single and married women to help fill vacant posts. Additionally, as married couples moved to the suburbs and filled their homes with the latest appliances women often pursued work to allow their family to live in the manner they felt they deserved. Women who had the opportunity to pursue a post-secondary education were also more likely to enter the workforce; these women were the most fortunate as they could demand higher salaries than their less educated counterparts. Lastly, many women worked simply because they derived personal satisfaction from it..
In 1950 women comprised 29% of the work force and as the decade went on that number only increased. Given the cultural messages women were receiving, one would have expected participation would have been limited to women without children or women whose children had grown. While women over 35 comprised half of the women in the workplace, 40% of married women with small children were also employed…
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http://alanis.simmons.edu/edith/opportunities
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Caro says:
Sexism emanates from misogyny. Every single time. Misogyny is the ground condition, not a subspecies of its effect. Sexist things happen because someone somewhere thinks one gender is better than the other. It’s just not always a one to one interaction between two people: sometimes the “someone” is an institution or a culture rather than a man.
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How nice to see things in such a comfortingly simple way! (Oh well, so much for subtlety…)
And thinking that “one gender is better than the other” at certain things (because those “traditional”-minded folks still maintain that women are better, more suited to raising kids and keeping house), does that necessarily mean that hatred is involved?
Why, in some American Indian tribes, while males did the stereotypical hunting-and-fighting things, women searched out the clay to make pottery, create the pots, decorate them. (Transgender males in the tribe, who dressed and acted like women, were the only “biological” males allowed to join them.)
These women were proud of their skills and talent; scornful of males’ abilities to do pottery as well as they did.
So I guess (SARCASM ALERT) they must have hated men…
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Caro says:
…You seriously want me to use a statement like “humans are better at math than cats” as a benchmark for determining the nature of misogyny?
I hope you’re going to think twice, three or four times if necessary, about the implication that human women are “like another species.”
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Except that feminists and Black activists (“It’s a Black thing, you wouldn’t understand”) regularly DO treat themselves and the “opposition” as if they were other, utterly alien, species. Ironically (but predictably; they’re just sides of the same extremist coins) confirming sexist/racist attitudes.
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(Me, in an earlier post)
The stereotypical strident feminist might upbraid some clueless older gent as a “misogynist” for holding a door open for her, or offering her his seat on a bus. Rather than calling him a woman-hater, a characterization which he would reject as grossly unfair, would it not better help enlighten him to say his attitude, though well-meaning, is “condescending”?
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Noah Berlatsky says:
Mike thinks [calling them misogynist is] unfair to courtly old men, who, after all, are courtly, and old, and men, and who could not, therefore, have evil in their hearts.
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Ah, the classic “accuse somebody of making some outrageous/absurd statement which they in fact did not make, then attack them for making an outrageous/absurd statement” tactic!
Did I say it was IMPOSSIBLE for those “old guys opening doors for ladies” types not to be, say, serial-killers or vicious abusers?
No, I said those actions — though seen as culpable from a certain Kommissar-ette perspective — did not necessarily indicate they hated women.