I had originally intended to use this space to write on Noah’s post last week on the discussions of Chester Brown’s Paying for It, specifically his ongoing thoughts about the importance of addressing content in comics criticism. However, on Friday, our good friend Tim Hodler used some of his space on The Comics Journal’s editor blog to link to and excerpt a short essay on movie reviewing by the New Yorker’s film listings editor Richard Brody. Tim went on to relate some of what Brody said to comics criticism. I have issues with what both wrote, and I would like to take the time to discuss some of my differences with them.
Here’s the excerpt Tim quoted from Brody’s essay:
At newspapers and magazines, as here at The New Yorker, classical-music critics and pop-music critics are usually different people. With movies, things are different: David Denby and Anthony Lane write about “The Dilemma,” “Source Code,” and “Toy Story 3”; about “Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives” and “Meek’s Cutoff”; and about the life work of Robert Bresson and Abbas Kiarostami. Though analogies between the arts are inexact, the boundaries between classical and pop cinema are as fluid as are the interests and curiosities of critics who do the cinema justice. D. W. Griffith, Charlie Chaplin, Carl Theodor Dreyer, and Sergei Eisenstein are artistic peers, regardless of the differences in their cultural heritage and context, and one of the great discoveries made by critics—the young French writers at Cahiers du Cinéma in the nineteen-fifties, the inventors and advocates of the politique des auteurs (or “auteur theory”) who are now better known as the filmmakers of the French New Wave—is the recognition that some of cinema’s most popular latter-day artists, such as Alfred Hitchcock and Howard Hawks, are not merely skillful showmen but classical artists, akin to the writers and painters of the grand tradition, despite working in popular styles and genres in the employ of a mass-media industry.
Here’s Tim’s follow-up:
Comics, too (or at least modern comics), has something of the same “problem”—it began as (and remains?) a popular art form, and as a result of that, many of the most historically and aesthetically important comics are not sufficiently “serious” for more respectability-minded contemporary critics and artists. This is partly where the vitality—and for some, the embarrassment—of comics come from. It’s an issue that permeates nearly everything written about the form, and won’t be going away during our lifetimes. I have mixed feelings about how film critics have handled their version of the same issue, but it’s worth keeping in mind.
The issue Tim refers to is the reconciliation of popular entertainment with more overtly ambitious efforts in what is considered an art form’s canon of works. (One can call the two modes “classical” and “pop,” or “highbrow” and “lowbrow,” or any number of other terms. Choose your own poison.) Brody is of the attitude that this has been achieved in film. Tim’s apparent view is that the comics canon is the stuff of popular entertainment, and conflicts have arisen because an influx of “respectability-minded” critics and practitioners don’t want to accept it.
A major problem with this is that both writers seem to assume that canons are essentially fixed entities. Brody writes warmly of the “discovery” and “recognition” that filmmakers like Hitchcock and Hawks “are not merely skillful showmen but classical artists, akin to the writers and painters of the grand tradition.” He treats the ostensible greatness of these two filmmakers as if it was an established fact—albeit one that received a rather late acceptance—instead of an opinion put forward by a particular school of thought. Tim also treats canonicity as an immutable status for a work—once a work is considered canonical, it has arrived, and there it stays. The inference one draws from his statements is that no matter how much these “respectability-minded” critics and artists feel a work’s canonization is undeserved, it is what it is, and they’re just going to have to live with their discomfort. I gather he feels he’s being fair: he writes that he doesn’t feel the issue will “be going away in our lifetimes.” In other words, the “respectability-minded” are going to have to accept a canon they feel is unworthy, and those that are happy with the canon will just have to tolerate the continued (though impotent) grumbling.
The truth is that aesthetic canons are hardly fixed things. There may be something to the notion that once a work is considered canonical, the status is all but irrevocable; it is always possible someone will look into what all the noise was once about and spark a revival. However, works and artists do become unfashionable to one degree or another and occasionally fall completely out of favor. T.S. Eliot’s attacks on Percy Bysshe Shelley didn’t do much to discredit the English Romantic poet and his cohort, but they were more or less responsible for diminishing the reputations of such American Romantics as Longfellow and Whittier, and that work has yet to recover its former stature. In his lifetime, Adolphe-William Bouguereau was considered the premier painter of his day; he’s now an art-history joke. Does anyone still regard William Dean Howells as the greatest American novelist of the late nineteenth century? Contemporaries like Mark Twain and Henry James once stood very much in his shadow.
The contentiousness surrounding canonical status grows exponentially the more recent the work is. Gather some people who are well read in terms of fiction written after World War II. Just try to get them to agree to a short, consensus list (a dozen works or so) of the best novels since 1945. In 2005, the New York Times asked 200 assorted literary dignitaries to name “the single best work of American fiction published in the last 25 years.” Twenty-two separate works received multiple votes, and who knows how many more received single ones. The tides of fashion certainly shift in film-criticism circles. In 1952, the British film magazine Sight and Sound began polling large numbers of critics from around the world as to what they think are the ten best films of all time. The survey is conducted once every decade, and only two films have been among the top ten vote-getters every time they could have been considered: Jean Renoir’s The Rules of the Game and Sergei Eisenstein’s Battleship Potemkin. (Click here to see the top vote getters decade by decade.) Orson Welles’ Citizen Kane, the most popular film in five of the six surveys (it didn’t get enough votes to make the final list the first time out), has yet to be named by a majority of those polled. And while the Sight and Sound polling largely tracks the degree of relative continued popularity—several films make the final list one decade, miss out the next, and are back the decade after that—it’s not unheard of for a top vote-getter to fall completely out of favor. Look at that 1952 list. How many people today even know Louisiana Story by reputation? Furthermore, how many consider Greed, Le Jour se lève, Brief Encounter, or Le Million anything more than curiosities? Canons of modern work (i.e., work produced over the hundred years) are areas of enormous dispute and highly mutable. There’s no good reason why comics should be an exception.
Whether or not they realize it, both Brody and Tim are largely just declaring and protecting their turf. They believe the canons are the way they want them, and they’d like to keep them that way. Neither questions, here or elsewhere, the thinking behind the canonicity of certain works. Has it ever occurred to Brody that perhaps, back in the ‘50s, Godard and Truffaut were just a pair of pretentious guys in their twenties who were exalting their taste—and it’s a very typical taste for young men of that age–for the popular suspense and adventure films of the day? That these enthusiasms caught on because their later prestige as filmmakers gave a patina of respectability to work whose primary appeal was that it was so undemanding? Is a young critic’s passion for Hitchcock and Hawks back then terribly different than a young critic’s passion for Christopher Nolan or David Fincher today? As for Tim, he writes that the popular-entertainment aspects of comics are a key source of the medium’s vitality, which of course is mainly a trope for their appeal to him. He insinuates the “respectability-minded” critics and artists—those unfortunately pretentious individuals that he’s resigned to enduring—find these aspects “embarrassing.” It doesn’t seem to occur to him that they may just find these aspects banal. Or that they feel the touted achievements of the works—generally the strength of the graphics and the pacing effects—are just too thin to justify canonicity if that’s to have any significant meaning. I wonder if either Brody or Tim has asked himself if the canonicity of his preferred works is more based on fannish zeal than critical engagement and rigor.
I’m not asking Brody or Tim to change their tastes; they’re entitled to their likes and dislikes as much as anyone else. What I object to is their attempt—conscious or unconscious—to assert or reinforce their taste as a hegemony on their respective fields of interest. Canons change, and new generations of critics, if they have much to offer, smash old icons and raise new ones. Brody might want to show more of an awareness that his beloved Hitchcock and Hawks may someday fall from favor. (With Hawks, I believe this is already underway, although more from neglect than disdain.) And Tim should be open to the possibility that the likes of Eisner, Toth, or even Crumb may be deemed unworthy of significant acclaim or otherwise ignored. To paraphrase Montaigne, there is always room for another, and a road in a different direction.


55 Comments
I think you’re misreading Tim’s view. Or perhaps just reading too much into it.
I think he’s saying that most comics have been popular entertainments, and that includes the historically/aesthetically “important” comics. So that comics critics have to constantly deal with the “it’s just popular crap” argument (or maybe don’t “have to” but do spend time on it).
I don’t think he’s positing any argument against the “serious”, just that the popular origins and domination are an issue, and that many critics still feel the need to fight the “comics aren’t just for kids”/”comics aren’t just superheroes”/”comics aren’t just garfield” argument.
I think this is Robert’s point though:
“that includes the historically/aesthetically “important” comics”
Which comics are historically and aesthetically important (even in quotes) isn’t a given; it’s up for dispute and can change over time.
So the issue is precisely whether critics should have to talk about something like, say, Popeye, or even Crumb…or at least how that talking should be framed. Is it necessary to engage with those folks because they’re important? Or is it necessary to engage with them because they’re not, or mistakenly, important?
And there’s also a question whether the issue for critics who aren’t necessarily so into Popeye or Crumb is, or has to be, one of respectability. I’d say that, on the contrary, if you want to be a respectable comics critic at the moment, there are actually fairly strong pressures to declare your allegiance to Crumb, Eisner, et. al. If you don’t (at least in my experience) you’re considered not serious, a troublemaker, and generally not with the program.
I quite like Howard Hawks, though, damn it.
Well, from a historical perspective, I don’t think you could exclude all popular entertainments. I doubt you could from an aesthetic perspective either. The canon is mutable, I agree, I just think the issue with comics is how long it took for work that wasn’t popular entertainment to take hold and how much said work has influenced/affected the history and aesthetics of comics.
I will gladly declare against Crumb and Eisner. I’ll take “generally not with the program” as my option.
That’s an issue in film too, which is Tim’s point….
I didn’t know you were anti-Crumb.
I don’t think you can, and wouldn’t want to, exclude all popular entertainments! I’m not sure Robert is arguing for that, though.
In this context, the split between classical and everything else is the exception, and is kind of fascinating to me. Classical music is really almost completely irrelevant to what’s happening in popular music in a way that’s hard to imagine in any other art form. For example, Wuthering Heights and Jane Austen and Romeo and Juliet are central to Twilight; they’re referenced compulsively (as of course is Dracula.) But that just doesn’t happen in music; hip hop folks will rescue canonical artists of course, but the canon has no overlap with classical music, essentially (except sometimes parodically, Roll Over Beethoven.)
And then there’s television, which I think is only tentatively and sporadically in the process of forming a canon….
My point was that I think Robert is misreading Tim’s comments in re Tim’s opinion about this. He’s giving Tim some kind of hardline “canon’s are unchanging and comics shouldn’t be serious” opinion which isn’t there.
Yes, no fan of Crumb. I guess I can appreciate the historical importance of his existence (ie I will accept his general canonicity for historical reasons), but I don’t actually like any of the work of his I’ve read.
The comics canon was formed by comics fans with nostalgia colored glasses, that’s all… I don’t even call them critics…
I also hope that Crumb will be seen as a curious footnote in comics history someday. As for Will Eisner I can’t understand why people haven’t recognized how mediocre he was already…
Domingos, Tim does have a point though in that you’ve been forced to engage with that canon, if only to dismiss it.
Derik, I think it’s a little ambiguous (as you’d expect in a fairly informal blog post) as to whether he’s just saying, “this is the way things are,” or whether he’s endorsing the way things are. “Respectability-minded” seems like a (mild) jab, anyway. I don’t think Robert’s reading is airtight, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable either.
Anyway, re: Crumb — I don’t think I’ve ever read an entire Crumb comic that I liked…though I enjoy his drawing and sometimes appreciate some of his ideas.
What’s interesting about Crumb is that I don’t actually know how important he is to current creators? I feel like Schulz and McCay are a bigger deal in a lot of ways… Crumb’s somebody where I think the canon may not exactly be falling out his way — or at least where his influence seems to be diminishing, if not exactly his reputation.
Yes, Derik’s right. I have no illusions about there being some kind of fixed canon, and am frankly baffled as to how Robert got the idea from my brief comments. When I wrote the line about this issue not going away during our lifetimes I meant to indicate exactly that — canons change. That being said, right now, it’s undeniable that many of the comics that are most important to the modern form have their origins in popular entertainment (Schulz, McCay, Kirby, Tezuka, among many others). This is a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive one. I have no particular beef with any critic who dislikes any of these artists’ works, though I personally appreciate them all. I’m simply saying that they (or similar popular artists you can use as stand-ins if you don’t agree with these particular names) are important to the form as it stands right now. Don’t take my word for it. Look at the Masters of American Comics show, or the Comics Journal’s top 100 comics list, for two examples off the top of my head. (Domingos Isabelhino is the critic whose personal canon, is most strict about excluding popular genres, and even he allows for Carl Barks.)
As to the specific examples Robert gives as my supposed sacred cows (where he pulled them from I don’t know — they don’t come from me): I would be very surprised if Alex Toth was read by any more than very small group of scholars and/or aficionados a few decades from now. I think Eisner’s work will last longer, mostly for historical reasons, but will most likely eventually disappear as well. Crumb is one of five or so cartoonists I think is a safe bet will still be widely read a century from now, but I could be wrong — who knows?
Anyway, Robert I appreciate the relatively civil tone of this post, but wish you’d hesitate before assigning me opinions that don’t appear in what I’ve actually written.
Noah: “Domingos, Tim does have a point though in that you’ve been forced to engage with that canon, if only to dismiss it.”
Don’t I know it?! I created a blog to do so. I must add that a “personal canon” doesn’t exist. A canon is a collective construction and I just hope that people from outside the comics ghetto change the ghetto’s canon that exists today.
Tim: I have nothing against popular entertainment. I also think that a good art vs. bad art kind of black & white view of things is exactly clever or productive. I enjoy a lot of pop pap (Gasoline Alley, for instance) it’s just that I don’t think that it fares well alongside Tsuge’s work or Fabrice Neaud’s work. That’s my whole point, while the pap is canonized meatier work is forgotten.
I’m also thinking Robert misread Brody:
“Though analogies between the arts are inexact, the boundaries between classical and pop cinema are as fluid as are the interests and curiosities of critics who do the cinema justice.”
That doesn’t sound like someone who’s taking a canon as absolute. Seems to me that his general point is that low and high distinctions aren’t quite as solidified within film criticism as elsewhere.
And to Noah’s point:
“Classical music is really almost completely irrelevant to what’s happening in popular music in a way that’s hard to imagine in any other art form.”
Unless you’re arguing that Twilight or whatever is explicitly dependent on Wuthering Heights et al., it’s not all that different from hip hop’s dependence on tape manipulation and sampling from the avant garde. There’s a lineage there. There’s that essay by Adorno where he blames Tchaikovsky for most of what he finds awful in pop music. Anyway, pop might not explicitly acknowledge the classical tradition any more than your modern R&B artist can name any of his precursors from the 40s or 50s, but the influence is still there.
Which is what I believe Brody is talking about: you’re more likely to find some high-toned film critics singing the praises of Chaplin than a classical music critic doing the same with pop music. I suspect that might be more a result of their respective job demands than differences in individual tastes.
Why does anyone still care about high and low distinctions? Blah.
“I also DON’T think” Sigh!…
Domingos: Fair enough. And while I often disagree with you on the worth of individual works and artists, I still think your critical stance in general provides a valuable corrective.
“Why does anyone still care about high and low distinctions? Blah.”
They’re really interesting! A source of creativity and creative friction.
Twilight explicitly references Wuthering Heights, repeatedly and insistently. I would say that it is in fact dependent on it for themes and emotional resonance. It’s way different than hip hop’s technological reliance on the avant garde and tape manipulation. Similarly, jazz’s use of classical instruments is really about taking tools and doing something else with them. It’s really different — almost the opposite — of seeing oneself as part of a tradition that includes classical composers. (Duke Ellington and Miles Davis are a different matter, of course…)
The thing about hip hop is that it’s actually quite discontinuous with 40s and 50s R&B in a lot of ways too….though I bet there’s more awareness of that stuff than you might think; Beyonce and Christina Aguilera, for example, certainly know their 50s and 60s divas (Britney not so much, perhaps.)
Tim, if you’re still around…I’d be interested to know what you find problematic in film’s approach to these issues?
Charles: “Why does anyone still care about high and low distinctions? Blah.”
Let’s put it this way: it’s like right and left politics: they don’t matter anymore (real politik took care of that), but they still exist. I agree with Jesus Christ here: “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a work for hire, pop pap kitschy artist to do great art.
While Toth may not be read in a decade+, it seems like he’s about to enjoy a renaissance with all these high profile publications coming out (from IDW and Fantagraphis)… or not, I guess Alex Raymond hasn’t enjoyed the same despite the reprints of his work.
Unrelated to anything, but reminded by talk of Domingos’ canon, Domingos: I was at the MoMA in NYC the other week and stumbled upon a Bacon triptych by the cafe. Beautiful piece. You’re post on him awhile back is what got me looking at his work more closely.
Would that still be as true, Domingos, if the high/low discourse weren’t helping to keep artists segregated? I don’t buy Noah’s (and maybe yours?) idea that it’s more a source of creativity than not. I think it’s limiting. It’s a marketing tool. Why accept it as anything intrinsic to the art? That’s what I meant.
Noah, you’re switching between particulars and the general. In general, teen lit is no more dependent on classic literature than hip hop is on tape manipulation, dance music is on electronic music, or jazz on classical. And with the exception of particulars like Duke Ellington and Miles Davis, would jazz music still be the same as it is?
To exclude the technological influence of sampling from hip hop is pretty much going to make the genre unrecognizable. I suspect some hip hop fans would be fans of musique concrete if exposed to it in the same way extreme metal fans can find much to love in the avant garde (cf. Terrorizer magazine).
It seems you’re thinking of ‘influence’ as being derivative (which Twilight might be, I haven’t read Wuthering Heights … or Twilight). It doesn’t have to be. Nor does one have to explicitly acknowledge an influence to have one (“of seeing oneself as part of a tradition”).
Charles, my point is that there’s a difference between technological innovations (which are I think fairly separable from the context in which they originate) and actual influence. I think acknowledging influence (in various ways) is actually an important part of influence. The roots of popular music these days simply don’t have much to do with the roots of classical music, and there’s been relatively little cross-fertilization. You can find some links if you try, but compared to the back and forth in most other mediums between high and low, it’s really pretty meager.
Jazz is way closer to classical than any recent popular music has been, there’s no doubt about that. Most of the technological innovations in hip hop came at least once removed (through groups like Kraftwerk.) It’s just really weird to say that Stockhausen matters to hip hop in some sort of intrinsic way. The biggest recent innovation is Autotune which I think came about through geological surveys. So is hip hop influenced by industry? Sure, in some sense. But only some.
YA romance and fiction I think in general sees itself as continuous with romance in general, certainly pointing to Jane Austen, Romeo and Juliet, and so forth. I don’t read tons and tons of that stuff, but I don’t think Twilight is particularly bizarre (in that respect at least.) It makes it’s borrowings more explicit maybe. But, say, Stephen King will quote great literature on occasion. People who write those things are just often readers of things that include Jane Austen, Bronte, et. al. Pop musicians don’t listen to classical music nearly as much; the audiences are very difference.
You know, I need to think more about whether I think high and low culture distinctions should be abolished. I’ve usually been of your opinion that they should be, but I think I may be changing my mind….
There is and has been classical influence (acknowledged as such) on pop music. Plenty of use of orchestral scoring and orchestras—suites as album sides, etc. in the Beatles and their contemporaries (and those they influenced) (and of course McCartney has tried for some strictly classical composing)…and who’s more influential than the Beatles? The whole “rock opera” notion is borrowed from the classical (leitmotifs and recurrent melodies, etc.) Also, prog rock (and by extension some version of heavy metal) are classically influenced. Disco had its “Fifth of Beethoven” moments—and, of course, film soundtracks/scoring are essentially classical in orientation. I’m fairly out of touch with teen pop these days (heard much of it, but not repeatedly so)—but surely that’s not the limit of what we’re calling pop music? Isn’t Katy Perry trained as an operatic singer–or maybe it’s Leona Lewis? And Alicia Keys as a classical pianist? May be wrong about all of those–but I still think there’s cross-fertilization. The fact that classical recordings are reviewed by different people means that the snobs reviewing the classical stuff don’t want to be associated with the pop–but the one classical composer I actually know frankly admits to being influenced by the pop side of things. I doubt he’s alone… Contemporary classical is fairly marginalized–but the “old masters” –and more mainstream contemporary types (like Steve Reich? and Phillip Glass?) are certainly influential on electronica…which in turn has had heavy influence on pop and dance music.
I think it has to be Leona Lewis, not Katy Perry. And Alicia Keys I believe.
You can certainly find links. (Metal has interestingly sometimes turned to classical as a more or less explicitly racist way to move away from black influences.) But I don’t think it’s just an issue of the critics are distinct and missing the continuities in the music. There really is more of a break between classical and pop than there is between art film and genre film, or between literary and genre. Part of it is probably the fact that there really is almost a different language in some ways, since (with some exceptions) most popular musicians don’t use musical notation, I don’t think.
And there’s also just differences in origins that are maybe wider than in some other mediums. D.W. Griffith and Orson Welles and Hitchcock matter to both art film and genre film in pretty significant ways. Blues and Anglo-Irish folk traditions don’t owe a ton to the classical music tradition (though the later has incorporated pop influences over the years.)
Maybe it’s just that the music market itself is more segmented. But I feel like in film and comics and to some extent literature, the high and low distinction is really permeable; it almost doesn’t make sense to see them as distinct traditions. With classical and pop, they borrow from each other, and there’s a conversation, but it’s a conversation between groups that remain fairly distinct. Leona Lewis may be trained in opera, but she doesn’t sing opera, the way the Coen brothers make genre movies.
Another thing where there’s a definite divide is in video art and television. Again, there’s definitely influence going back and forth, but they’re dependent on different institutions and different audiences in a way that makes the hibrow/lowbrow distinction really meaningful in a way that it isn’t in some other mediums….
Not to mention that it’s one thing to be influenced by Beethoven and another very different story to be influenced by contemporary music.
Charles: “Why accept [the high/low discourse] as anything intrinsic to the art?”
I think that it is intrinsic to the art. Godard, about Hollywood: a film is a girl and a gun. Not being as creative as he is I’ll say that low mass art is escapism. I don’t accept segregation though: a few camels have been reported to go through the eyes of needles.
Some pop musicians use musical notation…some don’t—just as some betray classical influences (both “classic” classical and more modern) and some don’t… just as some art films are influenced by more pop ones and some aren’t… I guess the distinction (according to the assembled?) comes down to “how much” or “how many”— but they are definitely not completely segregated…
Yeah; I noted that Duke Ellington might as well be a classical musician…though it’s been a long time since jazz was popular music….
“He treats the ostensible greatness of these two filmmakers as if it was an established fact—albeit one that received a rather late acceptance—instead of an opinion put forward by a particular school of thought. [...] The truth is that aesthetic canons are hardly fixed things”
Hmmm…that’s strange. I seem to remember Robert saying quite the opposite somewhere…let’s see…
http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2010/11/sometimes-intelligent-comics-criticism-just-aint-enough/
“The truth is that things tend to get the respect they deserve. Yes, works are prone to being overrated or underrated at the time of their release, but issues of quality tend to get sorted out in fairly short order.”
Yeah, that’s it.
For the record, I consider Greed, Le Jour se lève, Brief Encounter, and Le Million to be a good deal more than curiosities.
I guess your point, Robert, is that most people are perfectly unaware of them, but they were still part of the high culture film canon last I checked?
Matthias–
My propensities for polemic sometimes get the better of me and I overstate things. The word “curiosities” is probably too harsh. I was just looking for le mot juste that indicated that people who are erudite about film are much, much more likely to have heard of these pictures than seen them.
Once you get past the Russians, the Germans, Chaplin, and Keaton, interest in silent film has diminished a great deal, and Greed‘s stature has fallen along with it. Le Jour se lève has been all but entirely overshadowed by Les Enfants du paradis. Brief Encounter–a film I really love, incidentally–has taken a big back seat to Lean’s later films. As for Le Million, it’s not my impression there’s much attention paid to Clair’s work in general anymore.
I’m glad there’s no argument about Louisiana Story‘s current obscurity.
I’m not saying any of these films are bad, by the way. It’s just that these days they don’t enjoy the exalted status I associate with canonicity.
Jones—
I’ve said this before, but I guess it bears repeating: there’s a difference between something being generally and universally true. I wrote “things tend to get the respect they deserve […] issues of quality tend to get sorted out in fairly short order. The word “tend” is there because it qualifies the statements; it indicates that I’m talking about most of the time, not all of it. And if you go back to that essay, you’ll note that I identify an instance where an issue of quality didn’t get sorted out in fairly short order: Herman Melville’s Moby-Dick. In fact, it took over sixty years.
That aside, the question of canonicity is somewhat different than the issue of quality. Saying that something is canonical is not the same as saying it is good. Here’s a nice little rule: everything canonical is good, but most everything that is good is not canonical. To say a work is canonical, one is saying that it is work that represents the best the art form has to offer, and should be what is used to teach students about it. It’s a statement of values, part of one’s vision of what the culture should be, both now and in the future. That’s why arguments about canonicity are invariably quite contentious. They’re about power, and power is rarely won, much less kept, without fights.
Objecting to Howard Hawks being granted canonicity is not the same as saying that he was a bad filmmaker. Pauline Kael and Dwight Macdonald both loudly denounced the auteurists’ veneration of him back in the day. It wasn’t because they thought his work was poor. In fact, both liked several of his films. Their problem was that they thought holding up his work as the epitome of the art form, and by extension, the culture, reflected poorly on both. Hawks’ achievements were too modest to justify that level of exaltation. The same is true of most of Hitchcock’s work. However, I am glad to see that the claims of Hitchcock’s canonicity are now largely centered around Vertigo, which is easily the most challenging and complex film by him I’ve seen. I’m certainly glad that the young Truffaut and Godard’s opinion of his best work didn’t prevail; the thought of Under Capricorn being treated as a high point of our culture makes me kind of nauseous.
Thanks Robert, that’s very helpful. Stochastic v. universal claims aside, I see that I was conflating yr claims about canonicity with yr claims about recognition of quality. I assumed that being (recognised as) good was a necessary and sufficient condition for being in the canon, whereas for you it’s only necessary.
Charles—
I read Brody’s statement as an expression of happiness at his perception that the film canon no longer recognizes the high art/popular art binary. His language when talking about the lionization of Hitchcock and Hawks makes it sound like it was a scientific determination—he uses the words “recognition” and “discovery.” In other words, the facts (as opposed to opinions) asserted themselves, and the binary was gone. Facts don’t change.
I don’t think Brody is knowledgeable enough about other media to properly comment on them one way or another. People who are erudite about literature or painting don’t use phrases like “grand traditions”; they describe the fields in terms of periods and movements. For “traditions,” you’d have to go back to the medieval period, where they guided the creation of things like altar paintings and miracle plays. And then there’s his use of the word “classical.” Once you get away from music–where it was adopted as a marketing term–that describes work from ancient Greece and Rome.
His discussion of music is really fatuous. The New Yorker’s editors don’t employ different writers for the classical music and pop music beats because of any high/low binary; they do so because they want to cater to the audiences for each, and it’s very hard—if not impossible—to find individual writers who can write engagingly for both readerships. A good pop reviewer is going to come off as too uncultivated by the classical-music crowd, and a good writer on classical music is going to seem too stuffy for the pop fans. You don’t need a lot of cultivation to be a decent movie critic. The vast, vast majority of films don’t require any more sophistication than you could expect of a reasonably intelligent 15-year-old. It’s true of films on both sides of the high art/popular art binary. And in any case, film reviewers, no matter how highbrow their inclination, have always written about both. Oh my, I think I identified a modern writing tradition. It’s OK, I guess; movie criticism isn’t literature.
Chaplin has always enjoyed the favor of highbrow writers. Agee and Macdonald both admired him a great deal. T.S. Eliot, probably the most elitist critic in the history of the human race, praised his work. (Eliot’s standards were so highfalutin that he actually had the temerity to call Hamlet an “artistic failure.” He wasn’t writing about a performance, either; he was discussing the text.) John Simon, an obnoxious snob poseur who probably wishes he was Eliot, included Chaplin’s The Gold Rush, City Lights, and Modern Times on his short list of favorite films, which, if memory serves, was otherwise made up entirely of European work.
I think high and low (or whatever one wants to call it) is a useful binary when it comes to talking about work. However, I think its best to think of the distinction suggestively rather than literally.
Chaplin was European, after all… I’m joking!…
If you are right about the film canon today I need to start a blog about my “film canon.” I’ve learned much of what I know about film (Flaherty and Stroheim included – I will never forget how much I loved The Wedding March the first time I saw it) in Lisbon’s Cinemateca. I love a lot of silent films and I really love Brief Encounter too.
Domingos:
“The comics canon was formed by comics fans with nostalgia colored glasses, that’s all… I don’t even call them critics”
Domingos makes a good point here. Though it’s fun and interesting to argue the contents of a putative canon, the vital thing to know is: who are the gatekeepers? And what makes them the gatekeepers?
Well, as with any art form, which artists are considered important or canonical is fuzzy…but it’s determined in part by critics, in part by artists themselves, in part by academics, and in part by fans (to the extent they’re different from critics.) Institutions are fairly important too.
So, for example, tcj’s 100 greatest from a bit back is a fairly important touchstone, I think, because tcj and fantagraphics are both influential and respected. The Masters of American Comics exhibition, similarly, was a statement about canonicity and a way to firm up the canon as well. Chris Ware’s interest in Schulz and McCay has made them central (perhaps at the expense of Crumb?) because Ware is such an important figure. And so forth.
TCJ’s 100 greatest list and that Masters exhibition are exactly what I call fannish. Dan Nadel’s comments about the latter’s catalogue in Comics Comics # 3 was right on the money. Not to mention Sarah Boxer’s hilarious comment: “[Invoking Little Nemo's mother: women are] the creatures that shake you out of fantasyland. No wonder they’re not allowed in the clubhouse.
Two frames from Jimmy Corrigan say it all. One shows a dull cityscape with a tiny bit of color, a caped superhero about to take a flying leap from a tall building. The next frame shows the tiny colored bit splattered on the ground. That’s one small step for a superhero, one giant leap for comics.”
By the way, here’s what I think about the comics canon (not entirely flawed, but…): http://tinyurl.com/6cpmdsg
Domingos is still on the money, so far as I can see.
Basically (and we’ve spoken of this before) the current rusty “Canon” was determined in the 1960′s, by fans; but these were high-profile fans: Umberto Eco in Italy, Alain Resnais in France…the grotesque summit of this fanolatry was attained when Frederico Fellini turned up in the Marvel Comics office to interview Stan Lee.( Even Lee, the world’s greatest self-promoter, was taken aback. He says that all through the interview, he was thinking: “Wait, this is backwards– I should be interviewing YOU.”)
They set up pompous institutions like France’s Socerlid, even more pompous magazines like Phoenix (France) and Linus (Italy). In the USA, Feiffer gave his cred to Eisner, while in Britain Dennis Gifford surfed on nostalgia…and everywhere you looked, you found the histrion of histrions, Maurice Horn, brilliant at winkling out subsidies for exhibition, not so brilliant at basic comics history.
We’re still living through the legacy of those years…
Two definitions of “canon,” one severe, another awfully on the loose side:
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can·on
3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.
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can·on
A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: “the durable canon of American short fiction” (William Styron).
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
…Saying that something is canonical is not the same as saying it is good. Here’s a nice little rule: everything canonical is good, but most everything that is good is not canonical. To say a work is canonical, one is saying that it is work that represents the best the art form has to offer, and should be what is used to teach students about it….
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(????) Seems t’me you’re contradicting yourself there. I’d go with your first sentence; that a “canon” need not necessarily be only comprised of the “best of the best,” but include works which are historically important, influential, precedent-breaking.
In cinema, the scripts and acting in D.W. Griffith’s and Eisenstein’s movies are fairly primitive and unsubtle compared to Ingmar Bergman’s; yet “Birth of a Nation” and “The Battleship Potemkin” are still considered important works, worth including in any serious study of cinema.
(A lot of debating about “film canons” — and the countless versions — covered at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_canon .)
Whenever the subject of criticism has come up, I’ve made the following argument, and see no reason why it cannot be extended to “canon formation”:
Some critics may be excellent and perceptive, yet value different qualities in varying proportions. One may give greater weight to innovation, another to mastery. One will consider it necessary for a work to be complex, deal with serious themes in order to be worthy of acclaim; another will think it more important how the creator uses the aesthetic armory of the art form, the “effects” it makes possible. And so forth…
As an example (somewhat) of the latter POV, Kim Thompson — who knows a thing or two about comics — wrote:
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The reason I haven’t yet risen to the defense of Hergé here is because re-reading Paul’s note I’m beginning to realize that we approach art from such radically different perspectives that I don’t know that we can find any common ground. Paul seems to have swallowed the whole sophomoric nonsense about narrative art being somehow “validated” only by the “realism” or “complexity” of the characters, whether or not the material addresses “significant issues,” and so on. By which standard, of course, the worst movie made by John Sayles, the most trivial “intimate character portrait” piece of piffle to come out of Sundance, is better than the best movie made by Howard Hawks — and any second-rate piece of modern “serious” fiction is better than a P.G. Wodehouse novel. And THREE FINGERS is better than POPEYE.
TINTIN’s characters are flat, yes. The adventures are often silly…But… so what? RIO BRAVO’s characters are all cowboy-movie clichés (played by a gallery of actors who are no one’s idea of thespian greatness: John Wayne, Walter Brennan, Dean Martin (!), Ricky Nelson (!!), Angie Dickinson), the story is so generic even I don’t remember it… and yet it’s one of the greatest westerns ever made.
Complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and all that shit are all vastly overrated as indicators of artistic brilliance by self-anointed critics. There are many, many works, particularly in comics, that feature characters who are ciphers, plots that are silly and trivial, and mean nothing beyond their “adventure” or “comedy” that are among the greatest works ever created. Franquin’s GASTON LAGAFFE, several hundred pages’ worth of gags about a lazy office boy, is better and greater than any comic created anywhere in the world in the last 20 years — and yes, I include the entirety of Fantagraphics’ output.
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K.T. quoted at http://archives.tcj.com/messboard/viewtopic.php?t=2868&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I wouldn’t go quite that far; but it’s worth keeping in mind that because, say, “Gasoline Alley” doesn’t delve into “serious” themes like racism, doesn’t make it deserving of being dismissed as “pop pap.”
Which reminds how Will Eisner’s finest work was not his “serious, adult” graphic novels, but the relatively lightweight “The Spirit”; which at its best was astonishingly inventive in “using the aesthetic armory of the art form,” even if the stories were usually nuthin’ to write home about. Gary Groth, in an evaluation of Eisner’s career, wrote:
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It was precisely this frivolousness that gave The Spirit its charm. There is something to be said for this effortless-seeming balancing act between form and content, darkness and lightness, sense and nonsense. It never approached the delicacy and sophistication of Lubitsch or the labyrinthine loopiness and verbal dexterity of Sturges, but its level of wit, its formal visual innovations, and its good-natured parodic take on pop culture was more literate and mature than any other comic books of the time.
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http://archives.tcj.com/267/e_groth.html
(Whatta rose-colored glasses-wearing fanboy, that he doesn’t kick Eisner into the trash!)
I earlier saw a jab at John Simon in one of the comments here, but can’t find it again. He can actually be a very measured and perceptive critic, ill-served by his rep. In any case, Simon once told of a friend of his, who delighted in annoying theatergoers by, when leaving a performance of “Macbeth,” loudly announcing:
“It’s good…but it’s not Oklahoma!”
And, when leaving a performance of that famed musical, calling out,
“It’s good…but it’s not Macbeth!”
My point is, don’t works which aim at drastically different goals, deserve to be evaluated by somewhat different standards?
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
I find the notion of someone “loving” an art form somewhat strange. Do we love music?, all music compositions? Or painting?, all paintings? I don’t think so.
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http://tinyurl.com/6cpmdsg
Because someone enjoys eating, it doesn’t automatically follow they’d eagerly devour a plate of decomposed intestines in a sauce of their contents. Or if they “love life,” then supposedly must enjoy the pain of a broken arm, or a skull-splitting hangover.
I love books, and reading; there’s something about the tactility of holding a book, the intimacy of the reading experience, the astonishingly wide-ranging aesthetic power of prose.
Yet, that doesn’t therefore translate to delighting in any piece of claptrap that gets slapped in between covers.
“Complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and all that shit are all vastly overrated as indicators of artistic brilliance by self-anointed critics.”
That last prepositional phrase is deceptive. The “self-anointed critics” in comicdom *overwhelmingly* *de*-value complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and so forth. Folks like Domingos and (at least to some extent) Robert who argue that Tintin isn’t great because it’s banal are in the distinct minority.
Overall, I actually agree that genre and children’s stuff can be great; I’m not a huge Tintin fan, but I love Asterix.
What I do find irritating is the unending defensive crouch adopted by people who won the bloody argument. Tintin is in the damn canon! If you’re arguing on his behalf, you’re arguing on behalf of the status quo! Which is fine, but the pretense that those who like Tintin are somehow adopting some sort of contrarian stance viz-a-viz the self-appointed critics of the world is just befuddling.
It’s a holdover from the ’60s, when it became “necessary” to defend comics from supposed stuffed shirts of the critical establishment.
Look, I like ‘Tintin’. I wrote about it in this blog. But I don’t esteem it as a great work of Art with a capital A. I find the whole tintinolatry bit ridiculous. I think Hergé did, too, in the end.
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Derik Badman says:
I will gladly declare against Crumb…
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Which Crumb? The 60′s-counterculture Crumb, the one who did “Psychopathica Sexualis” and adapted Kafka, the Blues-musician bio Crumb, Crumb the comics-essayist of ““Where Has It Gone, the Beautiful Music of Our Grandparents?” The single-panel cartoonist Crumb, of http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/Mike_59_Hunter/RobertCrumb-1977.jpg and much more?
Any one of those “Crumbs” creating plenty of work meriting them a place in comics history, and in any comics canon but the most absurdly ultra-snooty…
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Noah Berlatsky says:
[Kim Thompson] “Complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and all that shit are all vastly overrated as indicators of artistic brilliance by self-anointed critics.”
That last prepositional phrase is deceptive. The “self-anointed critics” in comicdom *overwhelmingly* *de*-value complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and so forth. Folks like Domingos and (at least to some extent) Robert who argue that Tintin isn’t great because it’s banal are in the distinct minority.
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Um, where did Kim Thompson say that those “self-anointed critics” were in the majority?
Also, he’s going back and forth between comics and cinema, with plenty of attention paid to the latter. The particular critics whose attitude he derides are clearly not limited to those dealing with comics.
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…What I do find irritating is the unending defensive crouch adopted by people who won the bloody argument. Tintin is in the damn canon! If you’re arguing on his behalf, you’re arguing on behalf of the status quo! Which is fine, but the pretense that those who like Tintin are somehow adopting some sort of contrarian stance viz-a-viz the self-appointed critics of the world is just befuddling.
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Oh, so it’s “contrarian” to argue against those who would chuck Hergé, Eisner, Crumb in the trash? Seems t’me it’s the latter group who actually belong in that category. (That cultural shift clearly showing how “We’re not in the 60′s anymore, Toto!”)
And no, I don’t think “Tintin” is “a great work of Art with a capital A”; nor, for that matter, is the vast majority of work in the comics canon. (For instance, I found the constant comparison of Beto’s Palomar stories with the work of Gabriel García Márquez pretty damn atrocious.)
But, because something is not great Art, doesn’t mean it’s utterly devoid of aesthetic merit, and worthy of total dismissal with a contemptuous snort.
Mike: “And no, I don’t think “Tintin” is “a great work of Art with a capital A”; nor, for that matter, is the vast majority of work in the comics canon.”
So what you are saying is:
Major premise: most comics in the canon are not great art;
Minor premise: the canon is a corpus that represents the field;
Conclusion: comics are a minor art form.
My version:
Major premise: most comics in the canon are not great art;
Minor premise: the comics in the canon should be great art;
Conclusion: most comics in the canon shouldn’t be there.
I don’t think, because the vast majority of even critically-acclaimed comics rise to the level of Great Art, that the art form is inherently limited. And thus, doomed to remain a “minor art form.”
Unlike a similarly-youthful art form, photography, comics labor under the handicap of requiring huge amounts of effort to produce; having had even less “respect” than photography did at its start, and taking vastly longer to achieve it; being an art form which is published, like books — thus requiring a greater financial outlay to market — unlike photos, which can be sold as individual art prints, and so forth. All of these difficulties and more driving away possible talent from involvement.
But those are external factors, which don’t take away from the capabilities of the art form itself to achieve a wide range of aesthetic effects.
As for your premise that “comics in the canon should be great art,” sure, there are some for whom “canonicity” requires towering artistic achievement. (Thus, “Birth of a Nation” and “The Battleship Potemkin” would get the bum’s rush.)
For others, as mentioned earlier, factors such as influence, originality, historic importance, are important as well.
Ah, here’s what I was looking for earlier:
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
Chaplin has always enjoyed the favor of highbrow writers….John Simon, an obnoxious snob poseur who probably wishes he was Eliot, included Chaplin’s The Gold Rush, City Lights, and Modern Times on his short list of favorite films, which, if memory serves, was otherwise made up entirely of European work…
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“Obnoxious”? Arguably so. “Snob”? Indubitably. But, not a “poseur”; Simon’s the real thing…
Clever, Domingos, but unfortunately not clever enough.
Your conclusion and minor premise in the first syllogism are not implicit in Mike’s reasoning. A classic example of “straw man” reasoning.
You also indulge in ‘petitio principi’ by assuming there actually exists an official canon.
This carries over into your second syllogism. ‘The comics in the canon should be great art’.
No. This is your idiosyncratic postulation, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of canons.
‘The Spanish Tragedy’ is in the canon of English theatre even though it’s a turgid, cliché-ridden melodrama– because without it, we would probably never have had ‘Hamlet’.
‘Pamela’ is in the canon of the English-language novel, despite its numbingly mediocre prose and canting hypocrisy– because the novel would never have expressed itself as it has without the seminal influence of Pamela.
You would never have had a Tardi without an Hergé. That observation alone places Hergé in the canon, such as it is.
I don’t think the Spanish Tragedy is really canonical, in most sense of the word. Probably not Pamela either. Certainly they’re not in the canon the way Herge is. Hardly anyone would put the Spanish Tragedy or Pamela on the list of the 100 greatest works of literature of all time (or the 1000?) Tintin would make many people’s lists of greatest comics though.
Still, to some extent these are semantic differences, right? Does canon mean the best of the art form, or does it just mean important works? I think it’s complicated by the fact that the categories bleed into each other….
I think it’s reasonable to consider comics a minor art form, though. Does anyone strongly disagree with that?
I do.
I don’t, certainly, but I can envisage a case argued against that. The problem, again, is the dearth of great works.
Noah, I think historic importance and influence weigh as much as, if not more than, artistic quality in the inclusion of any given work in a canon. I’d simply argue that this weighting is imbalanced in the case of comics.
Again, for me the crucial point isn’t the “comics canon” itself, or even the criteria for inclusion in it, so much as the identity of the ‘canonisers’ and the processes whereby they amassed such power and influence.
(PS Noah can you unlock now?)
Noah: going back to my post at The Crib. What would you say about literature if this was the canon: Jonathan Swift and the brothers Grimm, L. Frank Baum and Eric Flint, Enid Blyton and Astrid Lindgren, Roald Dahl and Leo Lionni, Sharon Creech and Laura Numeroff, James Thurber and Helen Epstein, Cavanna and Gerd Brantenberg, Charles Bukowski and Italo Calvino, Robert Louis Stevenson and Jorge Luis Borges, not to mention Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, The Story of Tracy Beaker or Chroniques de la haine ordinaire…? There are some great writers above, sure, I’m not denying that, but as a whole? Literature is a minor art form, maybe?
An art form which routinely — though not always — fails to live up to its potential?
All high art forms mine formal content from popular forms. It’s almost like an axiomatic Marxist base-superstructure thing. Whether it’s called “popular” or “folk” basically depends on whether the impulse is avant-garde or conservative. But Modernism based itself in typography, jazz (which has been highbrow for a looong time) based itself on blues (which is debased but stil only middlebrow at most), Liszt and Bartok and Satie based their work on poular and traditional tunes. If it’s done well, it opens up new ways of understanding the possibilities of everyday culture, and if it’s done poorly, it’s an ideological whitewashing of historical anxiety and injustice.
At the same time, the use of classical music influences in prog rock, heavy metal, or the endless amounts of soundtrack-scored hip-hop, Bronte references in Twilight, that’s in the sublime/ridiculous territory of simultaneous pretension and subterfuge. Either way (Domingos), I certainly don’t see that as something Jesus would have been terribly upset about
What is perhaps less worth talking about is middlebrow appropriation of lowbrow culture for highbrow cred, a la Art Spiegelman and the legacy of alternative comics. Gag me with a Xeric grant.
I must clarify one thing:
When I wrote the above list I had a lot of fun finding literary equivalents to the comics artists that Thierry Groensteen name-dropped in his article. If I remember correctly Italo Calvino is Mattotti and Jorge Luis Borges is Alberto Breccia (Bukowsky is Crumb, Swift is Töpffer and Robert Louis Stevenson is Hugo Pratt). Mattotti and Breccia aren’t exactly household names, I suppose. I hope that they’re part of the canon, but I doubt it…
Bert: I repeatedly said on TCJ messboard that I don’t understand why American comics artists can’t forget caricature and India ink once and for all? “Popular” and “folk” isn’t the same thing as “mass art” which is what we have today. Popular art is long gone, in the West at least, with agricultural societies. Even so I can’t understand why is it OK for Satie and Bartok to be inspired by low art while it isn’t OK for Ben Katchor and John Porcellino?
Because, Domingos, Satie and Bartok aren’t trying to cash in on being “poignant.”
I like “sad,” “warm,” gloomy.” I spit on “poignant.”
Nor are Katchor and Porcellino.
Not to mention everybody from Fort Thunder or Gary Panter…
…er… maybe Porcellino… a little… but I love him… so…