Robert Crumb cannot seem to dip his pen without courting controversy. Bookstore employees have been prosecuted under obscenity laws for selling his work. Feminists and their fellow travelers have long decried the attitudes that inform his depiction of women. Crumb can’t even catch a break with a biblical adaptation. With The Book of Genesis Illustrated, several writers (including myself) heavily criticized him for a shallow, conceptually timid approach to the material. Most recently, my Hooded Utilitarian colleague Domingos Isabelinho wrote a review of Alan Dunn’s 1948 book East of Fifth (click here), in which he made a derogatory reference to Crumb’s racial imagery. This in turn set off a comments-section firestorm led by comics historian Jeet Heer, who assumed the role of Crumb’s critical defender.
Isabelinho attacked Crumb for reviving and celebrating racist pop-culture imagery from the 1940s and before. His target was the 1968 strip “Angelfood McSpade” Crumb’s overtly sexualized take on the prelapsarian African native trope. Heer defended Crumb on the grounds that the strip was satirical, hyperbolically wondering if Isabelinho’s next targets would be Jonathan Swift, Mark Twain, and George Orwell. Noah Berlatsky immediately joined in. The racial imagery from Crumb’s 1968 Cheap Thrills album cover for Janis Joplin was brought into the discussion, as was Crumb’s infamous 1993 strip “When the Niggers Take Over America!” The basic argument is whether the ironic and/or parodic edge of this material absolves it of the charge that it promotes and revels in racist attitudes.
My first inclination is to side with Heer, particularly with regard to the Cheap Thrills cover.
Crumb’s work from the counterculture era reflects a larger revival of interest in popular culture and other entertainment from the 1920s and ‘30s. It was when performers like the Marx Brothers, W.C. Fields, and Fred Astaire found many of their contemporary fans. The first major retrospectives of comic strips like E.C. Segar’s Thimble Theatre were published at this time. Musicians like Eric Clapton, John Mayall, and Jimmy Page were finding inspiration in the work of Robert Johnson and other blues performers of the era. Renewed interest in the older music wasn’t restricted to the musicians, either; a major connective between Crumb and associates like Harvey Pekar, Denis Kitchen, and Terry Zwigoff was their affinity for 78-rpm recordings from the period. The interest in ‘20s and ‘30s culture certainly found expression in Crumb’s art, which recalled the Depression-era work of Segar and others. Crumb’s single most famous piece, 1967’s “Keep On Truckin’,” is probably the one most representative of his fetishization of ‘20s styles. People like my mother, who is a few years older than Crumb, may describe it as a “hippie thing,” but when one looks at it cold, one sees ‘20s-style cartoon characters in ‘20s-era dress dancing to lyrics from a ‘20s song.
Now with the Cheap Thrills cover, just imagine the reaction of a ‘20s-culture aficionado like Crumb to Janis Joplin’s music, which had strong roots in the old-style blues he was so enamored with. A conversation between Crumb and a Janis Joplin admirer might have gone something like this:
JANIS FAN: Janis and Big Brother and the Holding Company—wow! They are just so cool, so great!
CRUMB: Um, yeah, but you know, I like to listen to this old blues music from the ‘20s and ‘30s. She and her band take a lot from that, uh, from the black musicians back then.
JANIS FAN: Well, uh, O.K., but…but they’re celebrating that music, man! They’re celebrating it! Bringing it to a new generation!
CRUMB: Well, there were popular white entertainers back then who took from black performers. They said they were celebrating that work, too.
JANIS FAN: Really? Janis is part of a tradition? That’s so cool! Who was doing what she does back then?
CRUMB: Uh… Al Jolson.
Now, of course, I don’t know that a conversation like this ever happened, but the tension it illustrates between Crumb’s perspective and Joplin’s music was all but certainly present when he sat down to create the Cheap Thrills art. The “Summertime” panel, which depicts the song being sung by an Aunt Jemima/“Mammy” character, lampoons Joplin as just another blackface performer in the Al Jolson tradition. The “Live Material” panel, which features a male blackface figure at the center of a crowd of concertgoers, extends that lampoon to Joplin and Big Brother’s all-but-exclusively white audience. Contrary to Noah Berlatsky’s reading of the second panel in his “Crumbface” essay (click here), I don’t feel any of it is gratuitous. It’s a pointed rebuke that did not flatter its ostensible targets. Telling Joplin that’s she’s engaging in a “Mammy” routine, as well as identifying her audience in part with an Al Jolson figure, is not something that would be calculated to endear Crumb to either. And given the avowedly anti-racist liberal politics of the San Francisco counterculture scene that Joplin and her early audiences belonged to, Crumb also pointed the way for their political enemies to cluck at them for hypocrisy. It didn’t cause offense because Joplin and her audience were sophisticated enough to both recognize and at least tacitly acknowledge the failing Crumb was highlighting. The Cheap Thrills cover is generally considered the most prominent piece Crumb has done besides “Keep On Truckin’,” and he’s earned its applause.
With “Angelfood McSpade,” (click here to read) what one sees is Crumb further extending the lampoon in Cheap Thrills to his own work. He’s “celebrating” the work of that era at least as much as Joplin, so why should he be free of the taint of its more objectionable aspects? On one level, he’s saying that if you’re going to embrace the likes of the Marx Brothers, Tin Pan Alley, and E.C. Segar, you have to acknowledge Al Jolson, too. It’s an incisive and worthwhile point to make.
But. And this is where Jeet Heer and I part ways.
The apparent intent of “Angelfood McSpade” is more than to just satirize interest in the popular culture of a bygone era. In Crumb, Terry Zwigoff’s celebrated 1994 documentary about the cartoonist, former Mother Jones editor Deirdre English notes that in many of Crumb’s pieces, there are two discourses or impulses competing for dominance. One is that of the satirist; the other is that of the pornographer. English makes the point relative to Crumb’s 1973 family-incest strip “Joe Blow,” but it is also relevant to “Angelfood McSpade.” One can recognize the social critic’s mind at work in the piece, but, as English said of “Joe Blow,” “you sense that Crumb is getting off on it himself in some other way.” Satire that conspicuously doubles as a masturbation fantasy of its author is satire that fails. One cannot assail an audience over its tolerance and/or indifference to racism if one is obviously reveling in the racism one depicts. And when one looks across Crumb’s œuvre, this reveling is typical. It’s not always a sexual interest that he shows in his racial imagery; he sometimes just delights in the frisson to be found in it, as with the illustration that appears at the top of this essay. Consider this relative to the approaches of Swift, Twain, or Orwell. One doesn’t find them treating their satirical targets with anything but contempt. Or to pick some examples more contemporaneous with the Crumb work in question, consider Dr. Strangelove and All in the Family. Stanley Kubrick and his collaborators do not once betray a moment of accord with the Cold-War militarism they pillory. And Norman Lear always leaves one seeing Archie Bunker’s racism as pathetic at best and despicable at worst. It’s an achievement that’s all the more remarkable when one considers the success of Lear and actor Carroll O’Connor in making Archie an otherwise sympathetic character. Nothing Crumb has done can compare to it.
Heer praises Crumb for being “willing to implicate himself in his satires on racism.” I like the idea here—that Crumb acknowledges that he’s just as guilty of racism in his way as those he’s ostensibly attacking. It’s an argument that one should grapple with when considering “Angelfood McSpade” and Crumb’s other racial material, and Heer is right to bring it up. However, even so, it’s an argument I reject. I do so because I can’t help but think of the work of another Crumb contemporary of whom this also can be said: the painter Philip Guston. When Crumb was putting together the early issues of Zap Comix and other titles in the late 1960s, Guston was at work producing paintings that also treated similar decades-old pop imagery as a personal iconography. The first movement in this period of his work has racism right at its center: the pictures are all cartoonish treatments of members of the Ku Klux Klan. And Guston identifies himself with these figures. In what is probably the most famous of the paintings, 1969’s The Studio, the Klansman is obviously a self-portrait of sorts: the figure stands at an easel, brush in hand, painting a picture of himself. As I wrote in another essay, Guston was using this imagery to caricature “his sense of the evil within himself.” A difference between what Crumb and Guston are doing—and why Guston succeeds in his self-critique while Crumb fails—is that Guston includes a palpable sense of anxiety with these portrayals. There’s no sense of joy in his explorations of these images. He depicts himself wearing a mask in his own studio, hiding his face from himself in what should be the freest and most intimate of settings. He not only implicates himself in this imagery, he wants his audience to share his horror. That is emphatically not what Crumb does.
Philip Guston’s work is also helpful with articulating the complaint that Crumb gives aid and comfort to racists with his racial imagery. Noah Berlatsky noted that a Google search of “Angelfood McSpade” will quickly point one to a vicious, avowedly racist website that treats the imagery as good humor. Crumb’s 1993 “Take Over America” strip was notoriously appropriated by a racist, neo-Nazi newspaper that took it at face value. As Art Spiegelman said about the “Take Over” piece, this goes to show what failures these strips are as satires of racism. Spiegelman makes the excellent point that if the pieces were satirically effective, actual racists could not see the work as affirmations of their views. The argument one usually hears in response to this charge is that racists are too stupid to know when they’re being satirized. Guston’s work highlights why this argument is a red herring. One doesn’t see his pictures being appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan, and for good reason: the paintings don’t flatter them. Actual Klansmen see themselves as knights in God’s army. Their purpose is to enforce and defend what they regard as the divinely established hierarchy of the races. They don their robes and hoods for the same reason Batman puts on his cowl and cape: to strike terror in the hearts of “evildoers.” There’s no heroism or glamour in Guston’s depictions of Klansmen: beyond being tropes of self-loathing, the figures are buffoons. If Guston had to worry about anything from the Klan, it wouldn’t have been them pirating his work; he’d have been more likely to receive threats for demeaning them and their divine mission. If Crumb is going to satirize racism and racists, isn’t the best approach to figure out ways to antagonize them?
What it all adds up to is that Crumb, for all his brilliance as a graphic artist, isn’t much of a satirist, at least not with racial issues. He has a talent for humor, but he lacks the thoughtfulness to develop it into something more profound. He also lacks the discipline necessary to keep his satirical efforts from going off the rails. I don’t think anything can undermine a satirist’s efforts more than letting a piece degenerate into a personal sexual fantasy. Satire needs to be a rigorously intellectual effort, and there’s nothing more opposed to that aesthetically than an expression of appetite. Crumb’s shallowness makes him essentially an amusing smart-ass who occasionally connects. Is he more brazen than others who work in a satirical mode? Certainly, but a lack of propriety doesn’t make one a great satirist. It’s more than possible for a satirist to be offensive in the wrong ways, and with Crumb that’s often the case.
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Update by Noah: A response to this essay is here.
Update by Noah: You can read the entire roundtable on R. Crumb and race here.









62 Comments
Although Crumb does satire, I think his racist imagery is coming from somewhere else. I think analogs to Crumb would be Jarry, Artaud, Bunuel, etc., rather than Swift. For these comics to have serious psychic power (and they do), they can’t be seen just as satire. They must risk being appropriated by racists. Crumb played with fire. It’s not something we want artists to do that often. It is right that no one can be fully comfortable with this art.
Hey Robert. I think that’s a really interesting point. I tend to see Crumb’s racist imagery as part of his confessional project; it’s in his head, so he puts it out there. With some of it there’s a satirical point as well, with some not so much. Either way, I think the argument for it is that it’s honest (which is what Jeet sort of got at in the last discussion where he said that Crumb implicates himself) and the argument against it is that honest racism is still racism.
I’m going to maybe post more about the Cheap Thrills cover tomorrow….
I don’t think “honesty” is the main thing here. I think the main thing is throwing a taboo in the face of the public. Just as surrealists (at their most extreme as in Artaud) were throwing blasphemy and scatology into the faces of a public that would recoil at such images/words, ditto Crumb with racism. In some ways, this could be seen as a condemnation of a civilization in collapse–the surrealist could be seen as saying, you slaughter each other by the millions but recoil when I say “shit”! Or Crumb could be thought of as saying, you call yourselves anti-racist liberals while you slaughter millions of Vietnamese.
However, I think even that is overintellectualizing it (for both Artaud and Crumb). I see these things as almost spasms, indefensible utterances, shameful, daring you to look. They expect and depend on your disgust and to a certain extent your self-implication. Again at the risk of overintellectualisizing it, recall Marx and Engles writing, “Without slavery, no Greek art.” Crumb implies (I think), without racism, no Western Civilization. He won’t let us forget that.
“overintellectualisizing” sheesh.
“I see these things as almost spasms, indefensible utterances, shameful, daring you to look.”
I can see that…but I still think for Crumb (and much less so for Artaud) it’s part of a confessional project. Crumb’s indefensible utterances about woman are clearly tied to his personal libido. I think his indefensible utterances about black people work much the same way.
Marx and Engels have a structural understanding of how oppression and economics work. I see little in Crumb that indicates that he has any interest in thinking that way about racism. As you say, he’s not intellectual like that. It’s just, “here’s some nasty stuff in my head, isn’t that disgusting/provocative?”
Both Robert M. and Jeet, in different ways, find the provocative side less forgivable when it’s tied to women, maybe because it’s easier to see libido as self-aggrandizing when it’s literally masturbatory. But to me Crumb’s work seems obsessed with the eroticized authenticity of black people. He has a love/hate relationship with blackness that’s very analogous to his relationship with women. It’s less “without racism, no western civilization,” and more, “without racism, I can’t get my rocks off.” The second is a critique in some sense, but it’s also a declaration of intent. As such, I think it’s really problematic.
Crumb addresses some of these questions/charges in the R. Crumb Handbook, in which he talks a little about his own childhood acceptance of black people (and the heat he took from his contemporaries for his tolerance)…Whether we believe or accept these brief comments on face value is another question. He also talks about how the Angelfood McSpade material, and other “racist” strips, were largely intended as “over the top” versions of typical bourgeois America’s attitudes toward race. That is, he claims, they were meant as satire. He also says something along the lines of “perhaps I went too far” and expresses some regret about the more extreme racist and sexist strips.
At the same time, I think it’s obvious that he “gets off” on both racist and sexist depictions (and that the two are related—as his ‘ideal’ female body type is stereotypically linked to the black female body as depicted in Angelfood McSpade). I agree with Jeet that, in this, there’s some admission of his own racism (and sexism) and that is laudable to some degree. The racism and sexism itself, however, is the opposite of laudable, and he never really transcends the “racism is bad, but I’m making racist art anyway” stance to say something more meaningful about, or against, racism.
The link to Berlatsky’s “Crumbface” essay is broken.
If that Joplin cover is a pointed critique of her supposedly doing the equivalent of black face, then he sure must hate his own music. She at least didn’t dress up and pretend to be from a previous age. And if he was truly critical of her act, why wouldn’t it affect anything he’s chosen to do musically since then? Here’s a recent version of that theme: Eden & John’s East River String Band. Crumb’s the guy with the beard (he plays mandolin on the album). My guess is that Crumb really doesn’t have a problem with white people playing black music, but he’s willing to make a joke about it for the hell of it.
Thanks Modesto. It should be fixed now.
Charles–
I don’t think there’s a moral imperative behind what Crumb is doing with the “Cheap Thrills” art. Unless he’s targeting big business, I don’t think a sense of morality informs anything he does. All I believe he’s doing is razzing Joplin and her fans. That aside, though, the point I think he’s making is a good one.
Also, I don’t see why racists couldn’t appropriate those Guston paintings as cartoony expressions of their own ideology. The reasons they probably haven’t is (1) they’ve never encountered them, or, if they have, (2) there’s no words expressing the intent (satirical or not). I don’t see appropriation by racists as much of a criterion to judge the success or value of something. Some views are kind of beyond satire, since contain they’re own obvious stupidities (creationism, KKK, etc.). The failure of Crumb’s “take over” strip is that it basically restates really stupid views that a few people hold. Either people already know that the views are stupid (the satire is irrelevant), or they take them literally (the satire is ineffective). It’s an easy target, but why bother?
To everyone who’s been having trouble with the links, they are all fixed now.
Robert,
“the point I think he’s making is a good one” — Is there really a problem with a white woman listening to black singers, being able to belt it out, and using her inspirations and talent to make music that she likes? That’s simply not the same thing as blackface. I’d suggest the problem is with a critic’s (maybe Crumb in this case) mistaken notion of authenticity, undergirded by essentialism. What’s supposedly black music and what’s not is largely a product of a racist infrastructure, isn’t it?
It is…though it’s somewhat complicated by the fact that Joplin and others use the references to black music as a way to cement their own authenticity even as white-skin privilege gives them access to a much larger audience than the sources they’re using. There’s a question of whether Crumb is critiquing that process or participating in it, though. (I think I’ll have a post tomorrow talking about that a little.)
Class factors in to…it’s not really clear that Elvis was exactly appropriating black sources for authenticity, for example. I doubt it would have occurred to him that he needed to look to anybody else for authentic validation any more than it would have occurred to Chuck Berry.
Robert, I agree with you about Crumb’s Genesis being a “shallow, conceptually timid
approach to the material.” The problem here is in trying to excuse Crumb’s comix by
finding deep meanings of racist criticism in them, when there is no deep meaning.
Crumb is an amazingly talented artist with very good taste in old music, but he is not
deep. With Crumb, what you see is what you get, there are no hidden layers. This is why
when he got interested in Western religion, he enterpreted Genesis in such a
straightforward way. Personally, I find my copy of Max Gaines’ Stories from the Bible
more interesting.
Crumb is certainly not criticizing or rebuking Janis Joplin in his Cheap Thrills cover –
he loved Janis! There’s also a cat in the “Live Materials” audience, but I don’t think
Crumb was making any statements about cats. You’re much closer when you refer to his
“fetishization of ‘20s styles.”
Yes, Crumb has always acknowleged his racism and misogyny, but honesty is no excuse
for perpetrating hatred.
I don’t think he was perpetrating hatred there…possibly in his much later “When the Niggers” strip.
Another thing to factor in was that ‘Summertime’ was written by a White New Yorker, George Gershwin. That was another layer of ‘blackface’. Crumb might well have been sending an ‘oh please, are you kidding me?’message.
Or it might be simple racist stupidity, the kind of impulsive urge that fells the occasional stand-up comic. The age was all about transgression. This was in a time of Black Barbie and Ken, after all, a well-meant but foolish homogenisation of Black American life into the great White blandness.
Yes, as with Artaud, there may have been an urge to “épater les bourgeois”. Still doesn’t excuse the racism, but who seeks excuses here?
Well, he’s said that he didn’t like Janis Joplin’s music.
I don’t know about deep meanings, but he’s obviously interested in exploring his own mind–most of his most famous characters bubbled up from a bad LSD experience, the headless Devil GIrl story came to him in a dream, the other sexual stuff comes from his personal fantasies, he’s done a lot of autobio strips, his sketchbooks are full of stream-of-consciousness stuff, etc. I think that portraying your inner life is a worthy goal for an artist and that the racial stuff is primarily a part of that.
(Sorry if I just made an obvious point that everyone already agrees on.)
I’ve already had my say on these matters at length so I’ll refrain from joining the fray. But I did want to say that this is a very smart discussion and I especially appreciate the points made by Robert Stanley Martin and Robert Boyd (or Robert and Robert writing about Robert Crumb).
Quite right, I don’t think there’s hatred in the Cheap Thrills album cover, but there is in “When the Niggers.”
I don’t have much to add to this discussion but am enjoying it as a spectator. Tracked back from here.
@Trina, I think you frame it really well when you say, “Crumb is an amazingly talented artist with very good taste in old music, but he is not deep. With Crumb, what you see is what you get, there are no hidden layers.” — and I’m surprised, because that statement is not something I would have said myself anytime until I read it right now… Crumb (whose work I love) has always seemed to me a lot like Woody Allen, his work succeeds (where it succeeds) by taking you into his self-doubt and frustration with self. And for him, that is centered around racism and misogyny. “What you see is what you get”.
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Trina Robbins says:
…With Crumb, what you see is what you get, there are no hidden layers.
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Indeed, Crumb is not a particularly deep thinker. But, as is usually the case when people view the world through ideological filters, whatever doesn’t “fit” gets screened out. The idea that, as shown in his considerable body of work, Crumb could express contradictory views, emanating from different facets of his being, would work against the easy moral judgments some find it so satisfying to dole out.
Why, with proper “cherry-picking,” one wishing to hold up Crumb as a feminist would have plenty of examples to work with; the latest being his swallowing up of the dubious arguments made by feminist scholar Savina Teubal in “Sarah The Priestess: The First Matriarch Of Genesis.” In the foreword to his Biblical adaptation “Crumb suggests, drawing on Savina Teubal’s book Sarah the Priestess, that many oddities in Genesis may be explained by the existence of matriarchal priestess societies, which were being usurped by patriarchies during this time.” ( http://www.sanchezlibrary.org/en/content/good-comic-book )
Pretty much everything that can be said on the subject of Crumb’s prejudices is covered on the huge TCJ message board thread, “The misogynistic Crumb” ( http://archives.tcj.com/messboard/viewtopic.php? ). Where I wrote:
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Crumb deals with many aspects of black culture in varied fashion, some more potentially offensive than others. He can appreciate black musicians for their remarkable artistry and power, cover the variety of black humanity in the range of characters to be found in “Patton” and “Jelly Roll Morton’s Voodoo Curse.” As well as employ stereotyped racist imagery and views of blackness for his own ends, with unintelligent but good-hearted characters representing unbridled “naturalness” like Angelfood McSpade, or petty criminals – creatures of the unbridled id – such as “Salty Dog Sam”*…
But the latter aspect of Crumb’s treatment of blacks is not the same thing as his reverence for the greats of black music. In the latter, he’s working with the stereotyped images of blacks. Which, for all their political incorrectness, do have an undeniable archetypal power, a pop-culture vigorousness. (Interesting how some well-off blacks are collectors of old advertising and memorabilia featuring big-lipped “coon” imagery.)
With Crumb’s portrayals and stories starring black musicians, he’s using real people, photos of and biographies about them, as his sources. No doubt the more genteel would prefer a consistently dignified visualization of their lives. But Crumb’s never been one to shy from the lurid, and some of these folks had turbulent lives indeed…
Took a look this morning at a couple of other books I’d pulled out for material relating to subjects discussed on this thread. In a somewhat scattershot fashion, the following for your consideration…
From “The Complete Crumb Comics” Vol. 17:
…Pg. 51: In his great “Cave Wimp,” the old women in the tribe are strong and fearsome. One tells the leader “You’re not as powerful as you think you are, arrogant male!!” In the next page, as the crones later arrange to get him knocked off, Crumb writes, “…We discover that women have a lot more to say about the destiny of civilization than first meets the eye!”
From “The Complete Crumb Comics” Vol. 8:
Pg. 8: The “Whiteman Meets Bigfoot” story, encapsulates Crumb’s view of “civilization and its discontents”…
Pg. 73: In “A Word to You Feminist Women,” Crumb summarizes his arguments and attitudes well, from reasonable to ragingly pissed-off.
Pg. 74: “Sally Blubberbutt” repeatedly crushes the horny guys who try to have their way with her, finally giving them the boot. Her final statement, “Men!! At best they’re pitiful!!”
Pg. 114: In “The Confessions of R. Crumb,” we apparently see the origins of his big-butt and clunky-shoes fetishes. In a sequence with himself as a wealthy artist in a lavish office, he summons his secretary in, so with a cry of “Mommy!” he can jump up into her arms, be carried around saying “I wuv ‘oo, Mommy!!”, and finally curl up in a fetal position on her lap.
Need it be stressed, that unlike whose who put down another gender/race/religion and exalt their own, Crumb shows men as well as women in a sorry light indeed? He depicts noxious qualities – different, but detestable – in both sexes, as well as in blacks and whites. Far more accurate to consider his attitudes toward humanity those of a misanthrope…
* In “The Complete Crumb Comics” Vol. 8…
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Now, for those wishing to pigeonhole Crumb along with, say, Dave Sim, can one imagine the latter (at least in his “post-revelation” days) having a woman character contemptuously dispensing with men, saying “At best they’re pitiful!!”? Showing his own absurd, infantile insecurities and resentments in such grotesquely unflattering detail?
Crumb’s attitudes towards these things are different from piece to piece, and there’s certainly some ambiguity. However…his fetishization of strong women isn’t necessarily evidence of feminism, exactly. Male masochism is still about male fantasy and treating women as part of that fantasy, not about treating women as human beings. It can, and often is, used as an excuse to not deal with institutional sexism — look, women are so strong already, women *really* wear the pants, it’s men who are oppressed, etc. I think male masochism *can* sometimes be linked to feminism; it is in Marston, and it is in Jack Hill. But Crumb’s politics are much less thought through, and his commitment to feminism much less clear, than in either Marston or Hill.
Certainly hetero male kinky submissiveness and masochism can be linked to feminism, but it can just as well be linked to fairly stomach-turning essentialist notions of female supremacy and other qualities inherent in Woman (and in inferior men), heterosexist and cissexist gender binarism, and fairly uncritical fetishisation and worship of a perceived power struggle between Woman and Man in which Woman must win in order for the hetero male bottom/sub to get off. There’s no place for a real-life desire to dismantle power struggle itself in that framework, unfortunately. The other side of that is the role-reversal scenario, in which the Natural Order is female inferiority/obedience and male mastery/dominance, and the tables are turned (a common narrative in much “femdom” porn, which is why the subs/bottoms in that genre of porn tend to be so heteronormatively masculine). That’s not to say that such fantasies can’t be held by a reflective feminist man and enacted with partners within a consent culture framework, with the understanding that gender doesn’t work like that in real life. The problem is that it often *isn’t*.
[ Oops, just saw my link to "The misogynistic Crumb" thread didn't work; here's another: http://archives.tcj.com/messboard/viewtopic.php?t=1233&start=0 ]
I don’t think Crumb is a full-fledged feminist, but there’s plenty of real-life behavior that certainly proves him more enlightened than the average schmuck.
There’s the significant aid and encouragement he gave women comics creators, most notably by publishing them in Weirdo;
The fact that, once Sophie “came along,” he didn’t do what statistics show frequently happens even among liberal-minded couples and let the marriage revert to “traditional” roles with the new Mommy shouldering virtually all the child-caring “shitwork,” but took full part in the late-night feedings, diaper-changing, then was a loving, attentive and encouraging father, making up for what he’d failed to do in his younger, irresponsible days;
He’s agreed with feminists about women being systematically victimized and oppressed, which is far more than you could count on from most males. That he has no trouble swallowing wholesale Savina Teubal’s historically-dubious assertions about Biblical-era “matriarchal priestess societies” suppressed by the Patriarchy, however it casts doubts upon his critical acumen, also puts him in the “sincerely sympathetic to many feminist goals and perspective” camp.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
Crumb’s…his fetishization of strong women isn’t necessarily evidence of feminism, exactly. Male masochism is still about male fantasy and treating women as part of that fantasy, not about treating women as human beings….
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True, and true. Alas, that “sexual interest” thing can get in the way of hetero males seeing women as simply “human beings”:
(NSFW) http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/Mike_59_Hunter/KreiderKnowDiff.jpg
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Anja Flower says:
….fairly uncritical fetishisation and worship of a perceived power struggle between Woman and Man in which Woman must win in order for the hetero male bottom/sub to get off…
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Crumb’s own variation is in seeing women as so powerful and himself (at least physically) as so powerless, that only by the trickery of the wily, shrimpy male can the fearsome Woman be brought low, that he might have his way with her.
I guess you’ve heard about how as a kid, Crumb used to have sexual fantasies about Bugs Bunny? Who — besides often acting in a gender-ambiguous fashion — like “Br’er Rabbit …is a trickster character who succeeds by his wits rather than by brawn, tweaking authority figures and bending social mores as he sees fit.” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%27er_Rabbit )
On a somewhat related vein…
Rob Vollmar, “…conclud[ing] his application of Elaine Showalter’s three phases of women’s writing to the comics world, with a look at the female voice in modern comics,” mentions how:
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…In her identity as a feminist comix artist, Kominsky-Crumb edited and contributed to important all-woman anthologies like WIMMEN’S COMIX and, more recently, TWISTED SISTERS.
Ironically, though, it was her relationship with her husband, underground patriarch Robert Crumb, that opened up the possibility for a woman to be read by the entire underground scene as opposed to just its feminist branch. In 1974, the duo published ALINE & BOB’S DIRTY LAUNDRY, featuring their complementing views on the unique life that they shared. The frank, autobiographical content was charged with difficult questions about identity, sex, and family that plagued an entire generation as they made the transition out of young adulthood and into more demanding roles.
…While the dialogue between men and women in comics, finally given a form in Bob and Aline’s neurotic banter, was still charged with a lot of resentment and confusion, it was a conversation that was finally being had. The effect was immediate and unmistakable as more and more women were met by venues like ARCADE and later RAW, and Crumb’s own WEIRDO, which were interested in publishing their work…
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Much more, at http://www.ninthart.org/display.php?article=546 .
Anja Flower:
“Certainly hetero male kinky submissiveness and masochism can be linked to feminism, but it can just as well be linked to fairly stomach-turning essentialist notions of female supremacy and other qualities inherent in Woman (and in inferior men), heterosexist and cissexist gender binarism, and fairly uncritical fetishisation and worship of a perceived power struggle between Woman and Man in which Woman must win in order for the hetero male bottom/sub to get off. There’s no place for a real-life desire to dismantle power struggle itself in that framework, unfortunately. The other side of that is the role-reversal scenario, in which the Natural Order is female inferiority/obedience and male mastery/dominance, and the tables are turned (a common narrative in much “femdom” porn, which is why the subs/bottoms in that genre of porn tend to be so heteronormatively masculine). That’s not to say that such fantasies can’t be held by a reflective feminist man and enacted with partners within a consent culture framework, with the understanding that gender doesn’t work like that in real life. The problem is that it often *isn’t*.”
All of the above is true and perceptive; however, it doesn’t apply to Crumb. He has several times said that male masochism and B&D don’t appeal to him at all. He’s characterised himself as a sexual sadist, though of a mild type, and consensual.
Basically, Crumb wants to be a dominant male, while aware that this is not in the cards: the Alphas will always beat him out. Thus his resentment, thus his persistent fantasy of a super-female who looks down on him but whom he ends up subjugating.
BTW, he is depressingly right about heterosexual sex politics. Despite lip service to ‘sensitivity’ and ‘vulnerability’ and ‘gentleness’, het women overwhelmingly prefer arrogant alpha assholes. I’m speaking as a het man– it is true.
“het women overwhelmingly prefer arrogant alpha assholes.”
Oh tosh. Different women prefer different things. So many men are arrogant assholes, though (this is not excepting myself) that it’s hardly fair to accuse women of preferring them. What other choice do they have? I mean, are we supposed to believe that Crumb is not arrogant? Or not an asshole? Or, for that matter, not an alpha? Please.
I think, as with a lot of Crumb’s public statements, his disavowal of masochism has to be taken with a giant grain of salt.
I don’t. He’s been circumstantial about it.
And I’m sorry, Noah, but my experience is that women in their great majority go for the Alphas. Ever been to high school?
Sure, I went to high school. Men and women of every age tend to prefer to date people who are attractive, popular, and outgoing. That’s both predictable and understandable.
Part of the confusion that I think trips guys up is this assumption that “attractive, popular and outgoing” equals “sexist”. it’s just not true. Plenty of quiet, ugly guys are creeps; many an attractive, popular outgoing guy is able to interact with women as if they are human beings. The two binaries (quiet/outgoing, non-sexist/sexist) can influence each other in various ways, but they’re not the same. And, in fact, blaming women’s constitutional shallowness for failing to get dates is one of the most popular ways for men to be sexist. Crumb’s hardly alone there.
“het women overwhelmingly prefer arrogant alpha assholes.”
and “my experience is that women in their great majority go for the Alphas. Ever been to high school?” This is nonsense. *Shallow women* may indeed prefer alphas, but do you really want a shallow girlfriend? Did you ever? I went to my high school prom with a science fiction fan, because I was a science fiction fan. Intelligent women I know look for smarts in a man. There really need to be more women on this list! C rumb, OTOH, is extremely arrogant, because he’s been allowed to be so, even encouraged.
What’s needed is less (or no, preferably) stereotyping…
Actually, my adolescent self would have loved a shallow girlfriend, if she fulfilled the criteria a typical adolescent male would posit. Such are hormones.
I’ve seen smart and shallow young women going after jerks; I’ve seen smart and shallow young men going after jerks.
I’m sorry, but this is one of those nasty little facts about adolescence that the consensus prefers to ignore, like bullying and cliquing. Adolescents are bright but, by definition, immature. They are finding their way in their sexuality and their socialisation with no good guidelines. Lousy subcultural mores prevail– if you doubt that, just ask any Gay teen about the Hell of a typical high school.
But adults are shallow too!
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norb says:
…BTW, [Crumb] is depressingly right about heterosexual sex politics. Despite lip service to ‘sensitivity’ and ‘vulnerability’ and ‘gentleness’, het women overwhelmingly prefer arrogant alpha assholes. I’m speaking as a het man– it is true.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
“het women overwhelmingly prefer arrogant alpha assholes.”
Oh tosh. Different women prefer different things.
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Whatta way to sidestep and dismiss norb’s statement! It’s as if someone said, “smoking has been proven to greatly increase your risk of cancer,” then got that qualified statement brushed aside with a “Some smokers never get cancer!”
In all fairness, it’s more like hetero women are — as a group — attracted to confidence (Crumb himself noted this point; illustrated with a bunch of hens swooning over a crowing rooster), and mistake macho arrogance (which actually likely just covers insecurity) for it instead.
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Trina Robbins says:
…*Shallow women* may indeed prefer alphas, but do you really want a shallow girlfriend? Did you ever? I went to my high school prom with a science fiction fan, because I was a science fiction fan. Intelligent women I know look for smarts in a man…
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Great points! Crumb, too — the story was “Footsie,” as I recall — told of one smart-looking, bespectacled (and cute, as well) schoolgirl repeatedly, flirtatiously inviting him to come visit her. Alas, clueless, he had no idea that she was expressing interest, in that indirect manner which drives guys to distraction. (No, she did not take part in the footplay…)
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There really need to be more women on this list!
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Yes; but, is the Patriarchy to blame for putting a “No Gurls Allowed” on the HU clubhouse door, or that males (for cultural/biological reasons) are more “into” analytic discussions about art? I’d bet the percentage of “people of color” here and in the old TCJ message board was likewise low…
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Crumb, OTOH, is extremely arrogant, because he’s been allowed to be so, even encouraged.
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In some ways; but that’s mostly a veneer over a mass of insecurities. A ton of his work is proof of the latter; this example comes readily to mind…
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lidwjxbudq1qhimyxo1_500.gif
“There really need to be more women on this list!
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Yes; but, is the Patriarchy to blame for putting a “No Gurls Allowed” on the HU clubhouse door, or that males (for cultural/biological reasons) are more “into” analytic discussions about art? I’d bet the percentage of “people of color” here and in the old TCJ message board was likewise low…”
Trina didn’t say or imply there was a no girls allowed sign.
The reason that there are fewer women than men here has nothing to do with who does or does not prefer “analytic discourse”. It has to do with who is more interested in the kinds of comics that HU usually covers, which is a genre issue. That in turn has to do with my own failures as an editor. I try pretty hard to get women to contribute to HU, and I haven’t done badly as far as comics blogs with this sort of focus go, but that’s a pretty low bar, and Trina’s entirely right to point out that I could, and should, do better.
The same goes for getting contributions from people of color. Comics and comics criticism is embarrassingly (not entirely, but embarrassingly) white. Getting contributions from people from different backgrounds is something I’m actively working on…and again, I wish I was doing better at that. But my limited success is a sign of my limitations, not of anybody else’s.
You’re being too hard on yourself, Noah. The comics milieu is what it is and you can’t change that. You can’t control who comments and who does not. Maybe Crumb’s comics are read mainly by men?
I’m pretty sure that suggesting women are biologically disinclined to analytic discussions about art isn’t going to act as an incentive to participate…
Here’s the thing Mike Hunter, it’s silly to cite research (or popular treatments of research) that make large grain claims about populations to explain comic book message board participation (a decidedly small grain phenomenon), and at the same time suggest that analytic rigor (or even the appearance thereof) is what’s keeping anybody off of said message boards.
Mike Hunter sez:
Yes; but, is the Patriarchy to blame for putting a “No Gurls Allowed” on the HU clubhouse door, or that males (for cultural/biological reasons) are more “into” analytic discussions about art? I’d bet the percentage of “people of color” here and in the old TCJ message board was likewise low…
I didn’t know HU had a “No Gurls Allowed” sign. I’m sure contributing writers Caroline Small, Vom Marlowe, Joy DeLyria, Stephanie Folse, Erica Friedman, and Kinukitty would be surprised to hear that, as would numerous female commenters on the site.
I hope the bit about men being more into analytical discussions about art than women was meant to be taken as a hyperbolic provocation rather than a literal statement. Because if it’s the latter, it’s complete nonsense.
English-language comics have traditionally been a province of white males. That’s why so many are writers and commenters at this site, as well as at TCJ and many other comics-related forums. It’s nothing to be ashamed of in and of itself, but an effort should always be maintained to shake that up and be inclusive of others.
For contributors of color, may I suggest frequent commenter Darryl Ayo? He knows comics back and forth, writes well, and has strong and intelligent points of view.
About the Alpha Male bit– it’s not so important whether or not it’s true as to whether it’s PERCEIVED to be true, particularly by young males. They look at the successful guys and hear all this wrong, damaging crap: ‘You gotta show her who’s boss’ ‘Don’t look like you need her’ ‘If she gets upset just buy some flowers or candy’ ‘Keep her on her toes’…
Finally, I think I and everyone else is off speculating on Crumb’s sexuality. Sexuality and gender are the most idiosyncratic aspects of an individual, such that even the person in question can’t be sure of definite knowledge (see: Freud, Lacan.) The best comments on the matter here were the most generalising ones, such as Anja Flower’s.
Noah, I think you’re doing pretty good. You actively recruited me!
Norb, I agree that Darryl’s great.
Thanks to everybody else for commenting too. The issue of women in comics criticism came up fairly recently in regard to tcj.com too and Melinda Beasi had a smart post about it. Erin Polgreen’s also created a twitter feed focusing on comics and comics criticism by women.
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
Mike Hunter sez:
Yes; but, is the Patriarchy to blame for putting a “No Gurls Allowed” on the HU clubhouse door, or that males (for cultural/biological reasons) are more “into” analytic discussions about art? I’d bet the percentage of “people of color” here and in the old TCJ message board was likewise low…
I didn’t know HU had a “No Gurls Allowed” sign. I’m sure contributing writers Caroline Small, Vom Marlowe, Joy DeLyria, Stephanie Folse, Erica Friedman, and Kinukitty would be surprised to hear that, as would numerous female commenters on the site.
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It’s great that there are indeed women participating at HU; but, whyizzit that here, and to a far greater degree on other comics sites, the crowd is overwhelmingly male? (The old-fashioned liberal in me would sure be pleased about greater female participation…)
But, as many women (and folks in the “other” category) are here, it’s still nowhere near the 50+% it oughtta be, if all things were equal.
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English-language comics have traditionally been a province of white males. That’s why so many are writers and commenters at this site, as well as at TCJ and many other comics-related forums…
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With so many manga categories that appeal more to women, and the ill-fated attempts (like Minx, which actually put out a few decent GNs) to make comics to cater to that demographic, why is criticism and commentary still overwhelmingly male?
Hence my crack about a “No Gurls Allowed” sign; are HU topics so hopelessly male-centric (like cars, guns, The Three Stooges and sports) that most women are turned off from participating? Or are they just not interested in doing so, no matter WHAT the subject?
We just need to force women to join in, by gum!
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I hope the bit about men being more into analytical discussions about art than women was meant to be taken as a hyperbolic provocation rather than a literal statement. Because if it’s the latter, it’s complete nonsense.
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I’m not into “hyperbolic provocation” at all. But of course, I’ve gotten used to the fact that people will look at “males (for cultural/biological reasons) are more ‘into’ analytic discussions about art” and “read” it as “women are all biologically totally incapable of being analytic about art.”
In the same fashion that when someone says, “U.S. participation in the Vietnam War was illegal and unjustifiable,” conservatives will “hear”…”I HATE AMERICA!!!”
“Why Women Read More Than Men”: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229 ,
More on that vein, with even the same title: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/22/women-reading-books-study
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…Back in 2004 I produced a report that examined the world’s most successful newspapers, in terms of circulation growth. Of the newspapers studied,the vast majority of them had more female readers than men.
Newspapers historically have always been perceived as a male medium, [but...]
In the United States last year, 47 percent of men read a newspaper each day compared with 44 percent of women, a difference of 3 percent. In 1999, the difference was 7 percent, with 62 percent of men reading a paper compared with 55 percent of women.
In Japan, the difference has compressed even further. In 2009, 2 percent more men than women read a paper, compared with a 25 percent gap between male and female readership in 1999.
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http://www.newsandtech.com/columnists/global_outlook/article_1e64c488-b521-11df-aeba-001cc4c002e0.html
So with all the massive amount of reading (and writing) that women do (bravo!), why are there such a proportionately tiny amount of women critics?
As with the stereotypical male fascination with measurements and statistics, when women don’t tend to be so interested in a certain subject, it might be worth accepting it as just the way people as a group are, rather than regretting a failure to attract one group or another.
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Melinda Beasi writes:
…Overwhelmingly, the new TCJ seems to be pretty much a bunch of… guys.
…Look, I get that western comics culture is very much male-dominated, and I know that my perspective is probably skewed by the fact that I do the bulk of my comics-related online reading in the female-heavy manga blogosphere. But is it really so much to expect that a publication (online or otherwise) that considers itself to be an elite voice in the comics world might make a real effort to include female voices? And not just as occasional contributors, but as full-fledged columnists with the opportunity to develop a real audience and a distinctive voice?
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http://mangabookshelf.com/blog/2011/03/07/new-tjc-where-are-the-women/
Those male writers and columnists worked for years to get where they were and establish their credentials; so now we need an Affirmative Action-type approach to make “full-fledged columnists” out of women writers who have not even yet “develop[ed] a real audience and a distinctive voice”?
“Those male writers and columnists worked for years to get where they were and establish their credentials;”
…and they were able to do so in part because American comics has long had barriers to female entry, and continues to discourage women in various ways. You’re an instance of how that works, Mike. There are a lot of male fans like you who retail stereotypes about women (not as analytic! not qualified!) Many women see the attitude of comics fans and say (very reasonably) to hell with this crap, I’m going to go deal with a community that isn’t so steadfastly Neanderthal. Not to mention that when people with those attitudes are in control, it means that women have fewer opportunities.
Women are about 5% of the readership of superhero comics. 5 fucking percent. Women creators on the new DC reboot are way less than 5 percent. That’s ridiculous even by the standards of male genre literature. HU and most other similar comics blogs devote a fair amount of space to superhero comics. That’s just not a way to attract women readers.
“So with all the massive amount of reading (and writing) that women do (bravo!), why are there such a proportionately tiny amount of women critics?”
There are tons of women critics in fields *other than comics*, like English literature. There are even lots of female comics critics, though they’re concentrated in areas other than superhero comics. Still less than 50% because (and I know this is going to be a shock) *sexism has not bee repealed.* Patriarchy still exists, and affects people in many, many ways. Men have more opportunities in most fields for a plethora of reasons — including often more family support, less responsibility for children, more networking opportunities, and sometimes just plain old sexism.
Mike Hunter sez:
Those male writers and columnists worked for years to get where they were and establish their credentials; so now we need an Affirmative Action-type approach to make “full-fledged columnists” out of women writers who have not even yet “develop[ed] a real audience and a distinctive voice”?
Oh, please. I had been blogging reviews–most of them non-comics–for something like two months when Gary Groth and Michael Dean began commissioning work from me for TCJ. I had done some reviewing for a local weekly paper back in the early ’90s, but I don’t think that counts. Matt Seneca hasn’t been at this very long, either, and he’s already got a pretty established profile in our little community. I’m sure the same is true for lots of others. All that’s necessary is to get yourself in front of the right people at the right time and push their buttons in the right way.
That’s a good point; I had basically no profile at all when Dirk first published me in the journal. It was one of my first real publications (I think I got a piece in the Reader maybe a couple months before…?)
I will echo what Robert Stanley Martin wrote in that the barriers to being a comics critic are pretty low. In today’s world where anyone with internet access can start a blog, they are very low indeed. But even when I started out, sending an unsolicited review to The Comics Journal in 1987 (I think) that they published, it wasn’t too hard. And when I worked for the Journal, we were desperate for new writers (of any sex).
When I went to work for the Journal, we were aware that women’s voices were under-represented. The problem, it seemed to me (and still seems) is that the world of comics as a whole wasn’t especially inviting for women.
We therefore made special efforts to recruit women writers. One that I went after for the Journal was Anne Rubenstein. (See http://www.yorku.ca/uhistory/faculty/cv/rubenstei.htm). She is an expert on Mexican pop culture, including comics, and ended up writing several pieces for the Journal. But comics weren’t her primary interest, so her participation was limited. I think that happens a lot–many women have an interest in comics, but not a life-long abiding interest the way so many of us former (present?) fanboys do. That at least in part explains the imbalance. And given this, I think a degree of “affirmative action”–the deliberate recruitment of women comics critics by editors–is called for.
Isn’t the reason for wanting more female comics critics is that there’s something intrinsically different about the female perspective? If so, doesn’t that cut both ways, that the possible reason there’s not as many female critics is due to this difference (as Mike suggested)? Both sides of this debate seem to be agreeing on the difference, though.
I’m skeptical of the difference, a good argument is a good argument. Not that it would be a bad thing for more female critics, just that it doesn’t seem to matter much to capital when there’s a female CEO, so why should it matter much to criticism? The comics girls like don’t seem to be any better than the ones preferred by boys.
“The comics girls like don’t seem to be any better than the ones preferred by boys.”
But you’re admitting that there’s a difference in the comics preferred, yes? Which means that there’s the difference in perspective you’re claiming doesn’t exist.
That difference doesn’t have to be “intrinsic”, which suggests biology or absolute distinctions. It can be historical and cultural. If you agree that women have experienced a history of discrimination, and if you agree that that discrimination still functions, then it follows that since women interact with power and culture in different ways, they may well have different things to say about those factors than men.
For example, the claim “a good argument is a good argument” is a claim for objective distinctions in essentially aesthetic categories which has been challenged extensively by feminist critics, basically on the grounds that what a good argument is is tied closely to cultural factors linked to patriarchy. Thus, whether “a good argument is a good argument” is a good argument is one of the many questions on which feminist writers, who (for obvious reasons) are more often women, have offered a different and valuable perspective.
“it doesn’t seem to matter much to capital when there’s a female CEO”
So big business has attained an absolute parity in female CEO’s? When did this occur, precisely? Was it before or after the parity of women in the Congress?
Also, Charles, I think in general it’s not exactly right to frame these arguments entirely in terms of diversity. Women are drastically underrepresented in many parts of the comics community. So are people of color. The reason to include them more fully is *not* to provide more diverse viewpoints for white men like you and me to enjoy. The reason to include them more fully is because excluding people on the basis of gender or color — either through intentional discrimination or through institutional and historical mechanisms — is wrong.
No doubt you could respond that excluding people from HU isn’t that big a deal; who wants to be included on a stupid comics blog anyway? But the stupid comics blog is the thing I’ve got; it’s my community and my responsibility. It seems to me more important, in many ways, to care about equality in the little space where you have some control, than to argue for it ever so vociferously in the bigger, more important spaces where your opinion is never going to make that much difference anyway.
Whether objectivity is relativized to patriarchy, culture or whatnot doesn’t much matter to the argument about relativism. If relativism fails, then so does the feminist reduction to patriarchy. Of course, no one (man or woman) can make this argument without some admission of a common ground. When a feminist argues that previously accepted arguments fail because they’ve been biased, she’s arguing that the reasoning was flawed (i.e., it wasn’t a good argument).
I’d suggest that socialization goes into making a facet of interests et al. “intrinsic” to a generalized perspective (e.g., masculine, feminine). It’s what an individual (man or woman) does with that perspective’s that important. It’s critical value is not reducible to a gender. But whether one group or another is interested in that individual’s critical perspective might very well be.
And, of course, CEO’s are predominantly male, but when they happen to be female, it doesn’t matter much. Would America be any different had Hilary Clinton been made president? No. Nor is it really any different with Obama.
I’ll have to get to your second post later.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…Many women see the attitude of comics fans and say (very reasonably) to hell with this crap, I’m going to go deal with a community that isn’t so steadfastly Neanderthal…
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How much is “many”? A dozen, several hundred? So there are huge quantities of women supposedly trying to get into reading or creating comics, who are then turned off by the unenlightened attitudes they find?
The same phenomenon no doubt accounts for the low percentages of women in drag racing and bull riding; sexist discrimination!
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Not to mention that when people with those attitudes are in control, it means that women have fewer opportunities.
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Because comics-industry attitudes have not changed one iota since the 50′s; because all those indie comics publishers are a bunch of sexist pigs too…
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Women are about 5% of the readership of superhero comics. 5 fucking percent.
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You say that like it’s a bad thing! (More a sign of good taste; of not finding something that’s slightly less idiotic than sports wholly uninteresting.)
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Women creators on the new DC reboot are way less than 5 percent. That’s ridiculous even by the standards of male genre literature.
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Couldn’t the massive lack of female interest in superhero comics just possibly have something to do with their exceedingly low percentage as superhero comics creators? Or is it all the Patriarchy’s fault? Barring doors to all those women who are just slavering to draw musclebound goons in tights punching each other?
Why, I’d bet people who are totally uninterested in opera are much less likely to become opera singers, too.
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HU and most other similar comics blogs devote a fair amount of space to superhero comics. That’s just not a way to attract women readers.
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So, even the occasional hint of spandex is enough to send the women-folk packing?
But, funny how their lack of interest in super-fisticuffs is balanced by…
(Some old Romance Writers of America statistics)
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- There are 64.6 million romance readers in North America (22 million of them are male)
- 54.9% of all mass market fiction purchased in 2004 was romance
- 39.3% of all fiction (mass-market, hardcover, and trade paperback) sold is romance compared to 12.9% for general fiction, 29.6% for mysteries/thrillers, 6.4% for science fiction/fantasy, and 11.8% for other fiction sales.
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What, women are almost three times to be as likely to be romance readers? And, the earlier-mentioned Melinda Beasi, in her “Keeping Up Appearances as a Female Fan” essay, abashedly mentions…
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This morning as I was scrolling through my LiveJournal friends list, I came across a post by a friend, lamenting the obvious sexism in both the LA Times’ Girls’ Guide to Comic-Con and the upcoming Marvel Divas comics. I bristled, just as she did, at the implication (or perhaps outright statement?) that the only things that could possibly interest women in comics are hot guys, romance, and shoes…
[But...] …Let’s break down the front page [of my website] as it stands right at this moment. There’s quite a bit of romance (Boys Over Flowers, High School Debut, Future Lovers, We Were There), and some hot guys (Wild Adapter, Silver Diamond)–not so much in the way of shoes, but those were never really my thing. There are a few other items on the page, but when you look over at what’s made it to the “Recently Recommended” widget in my sidebar, it’s all romance and hot guys. That widget only reflects my five most recent recommendations, and sure, just recently things like Fullmetal Alchemist, Nabari No Ou, and Detroit Metal City were on the list (“and I’m reading Pluto right now!” my inner angst insists), but today it’s all romance and hot guys. I feel kind of sick when I see this, and then I want to kick myself for feeling that way. Am I honestly ashamed of what I’m reading? Why? Who do I feel I have to justify myself to?…
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http://mangabookshelf.com/blog/2009/06/13/keeping-up-appearances-as-a-female-fan/
Not to me; any more than girls have to excuse their preferring horses, while boys go for cars…
Beasi’s an outstanding writer, BTW; http://mangabookshelf.com/blog/2010/07/18/flower-of-life-a-love-story/ and http://mangabookshelf.com/blog/2010/07/19/all-my-darling-daughters/ show a perfect attentiveness to the emotional nuances and character interrelationships of the titles she critiques.
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Charles Reece says:
Isn’t the reason for wanting more female comics critics is that there’s something intrinsically different about the female perspective?…
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It sure is an interesting…coincidence that what Beasi is so perceptive about are precisely those qualities that women are stereotypically supposed to be more attuned to.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
Mike H: “So with all the massive amount of reading (and writing) that women do (bravo!), why are there such a proportionately tiny amount of women critics?”
There are tons of women critics in fields *other than comics*, like English literature.
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How much is “tons of”? Maybe academia is well-balanced, but with all the criticism I’ve read in places like “The New York Review of Books” and such, women are significantly in the minority. Sheesh, I just took a look at the last issue of the NYRB — one of the most liberal mainstream publications out there — I had handy: of seventeen critics featured, none were women; of the writers in other categories (poetry, journalism) only one is a woman.
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There are even lots of female comics critics, though they’re concentrated in areas other than superhero comics. Still less than 50% because (and I know this is going to be a shock) *sexism has not been repealed.* Patriarchy still exists, and affects people in many, many ways.
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So, why aren’t you and I rich, with all our “white male able-ist” privilege?
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Men have more opportunities in most fields for a plethora of reasons — including…less responsibility for children…
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What, have women not yet heard about “the Pill”? Abortion?
We’re not talking about abysmal Islamic fundamentalist countries here; if women get preggers and their plans for a career are shunted off, if they end up saddled down with raising kids, the Patriarchy didn’t force them to do it…
But, wait; what about how…
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More women medical students select general surgery and continue to close the gender gap
April 4, 2011
The gender gap among United States Medical Graduates (USMG) in the traditionally male-dominated specialty of general surgery is shrinking, according to study results published in the March issue of the Journal of the American College of Surgeons. These findings align with the overall trend of increasingly equal gender enrollment of medical students.
…During the six-year study period, the percentage of women entering training increased not only in general surgery, but also in the surgical specialties of obstetrics and gynecology, ophthalmology, orthopedic, otolaryngology, urology, and plastic surgery. At the end of the study period, general surgery had the second highest percentage of women among USMG entering surgery training (40%), behind obstetrics and gynecology (82%)…
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http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-women-medical-students-surgery-gender.html
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Women Are Close to Being Majority of Law Students
March 26, 2001
Women are expected to be the majority of students entering law school this fall, a development that is already leading to changes in the way law is practiced. And the movement is ultimately expected to help propel more women into leadership positions in politics and business.
Women, who made up about 10 percent of first-year law students in 1970, accounted for 49.4 percent of the 43,518 students who began law school last fall, according to data to be released soon by the American Bar Association, and that rate of growth is expected to continue. As of March 9, more women than men had applied for admission to law schools this fall…
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http://www.lawschool.com/femalemajority.htm
So are medicine and the law vastly more enlightened fields? Or is the all-powerful Patriarchy so concerned with not letting women do superhero comics, that it forgot to bar them from becoming doctors and lawyers?
…Or could it be that women found medicine and the law such important, interesting and well-paying fields to get into, that they just barreled over whatever sexism was to be found there?
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Noah Berlatsky says:
…Women are drastically underrepresented in many parts of the comics community. So are people of color. The reason to include them more fully is *not* to provide more diverse viewpoints for white men like you and me to enjoy. The reason to include them more fully is because excluding people on the basis of gender or color — either through intentional discrimination or through institutional and historical mechanisms — is wrong.
No doubt you could respond that excluding people from HU isn’t that big a deal; who wants to be included on a stupid comics blog anyway? But the stupid comics blog is the thing I’ve got; it’s my community and my responsibility. It seems to me more important, in many ways, to care about equality in the little space where you have some control, than to argue for it ever so vociferously in the bigger, more important spaces where your opinion is never going to make that much difference anyway.
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But, are you actively excluding people if they’re actually just not that interested (sorry) in what you have to offer? Should libraries and art museums give up ’cause the average person doesn’t give a shit about the treasures within? Is not twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to cater to what some groups might like somehow discriminating against them?
You may not have percentage equality in representation of the genders/races/affectional preferences, etc., but whatever group a writer or commenter belongs to, none is discriminated against at Hooded Utilitarian because of the group they’re a part of. Their comments are given a hearing, agreed or disagreed with on an equal basis; receive either showers of flowers or rotten tomatoes, according to the perceived soundness or dubiousness of their arguments.
Sounds pretty fair t’me…
>>>>How much is “many”? A dozen, several hundred? So there are huge quantities of women supposedly trying to get into reading or creating comics, who are then turned off by the unenlightened attitudes they find?>>>>
This is completely and totally true. Witness the incredible growth in manga, the percentage of women readers if manga in North America, and the failures of the Direct Market business model to sell to that legion of readers.
Charles;
“And, of course, CEO’s are predominantly male, but when they happen to be female, it doesn’t matter much. Would America be any different had Hilary Clinton been made president? No. Nor is it really any different with Obama.”
To whom doesn’t it matter, precisely? Surely it matters to women looking for career opportunities if there are more opportunities for them? Or do their perspectives not count? And why shouldn’t they precisely?
Following the Reconstruction period, when America decided that it was going to leave Jim Crow alone, America changed profoundly. It’s ideological decision to abandon equality affected everything from its attitude to individual rights to its foreign policy. I believe that America being less racist and sexist would be profoundly important, even if nothing else changed. But I’m not at all convinced that nothing else would change.
Your discussion of relativism…the point isn’t that feminists reject objectivity. Obviously many of them don’t. But the idea that males who dismiss feminist critiques of patriarchy are working from a non-gendered objective viewpoint uninflected by power relationships…well. Patriarchy isn’t a logical system. It’s a system of power.
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Mike, your arguments are so all over the place I have trouble knowing where to start. But…yes, of course the lack of female creators and the lack of female fans are linked. But…that’s not a denial of the institutional barriers to women in comics. It’s a demonstration of it.
Comics attitudes have of course changed since the 50s. In some ways. That doesn’t mean they’ve changed enough, or that the long history of inequality and prejudice just disappears because you say it has.
The romance statistics actually prove my point. Romance is an overwhelmingly female-identified genre. It’s readers are 2/3 women. Compare that to superhero comics, where the readers are roughly 95% men. Do you notice a difference there? Even by the standards of genre fiction, comics does an incredibly crappy job of appealing to anyone outside its narrow demographic.
“So, why aren’t you and I rich, with all our “white male able-ist” privilege?”
I can only speak for myself, but compared to the overwhelming majority of people in the world, I’m incredibly wealthy.
“But, are you actively excluding people if they’re actually just not that interested (sorry) in what you have to offer? ”
If they don’t feel comfortable here, then they’re being de facto excluded. Institutional sexism works in lots of ways besides active exclusion.
“whatever group a writer or commenter belongs to, none is discriminated against at Hooded Utilitarian because of the group they’re a part of.”
That’s certainly the goal. I think achieving it is a bit harder than you’re suggesting, though.
“Or could it be that women found medicine and the law such important, interesting and well-paying fields to get into, that they just barreled over whatever sexism was to be found there?”
This makes my stomach hurt. Women have fought for decades to make advancements in these fields, with many setbacks and at great personal cost. They didn’t just “barrel over” them. No doubt advancements in these fields are in fact more important than gender equity in comics criticism. However, just because sexism has been somewhat rolled back in other areas does not get comics off the hook. On the contrary, the fact that even such historically sexist entertainment media as television and film do better in terms of gender than American comics is a standing *indictment* of comics. It’s not an excuse.
Sean: “This is completely and totally true. Witness the incredible growth in manga, the percentage of women readers if manga in North America, and the failures of the Direct Market business model to sell to that legion of readers.”
Thank you.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
“So, why aren’t you and I rich, with all our “white male able-ist” privilege?”
I can only speak for myself, but compared to the overwhelming majority of people in the world, I’m incredibly wealthy.
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And slum-dwelling American blacks are “richer” than others of that race throughout the world; and an impoverished Appalachian woman can still have electricity, stove, a teevee and such; making her richer than…
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“But, are you actively excluding people if they’re actually just not that interested (sorry) in what you have to offer? ”
If they don’t feel comfortable here, then they’re being de facto excluded. Institutional sexism works in lots of ways besides active exclusion.
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There’s discomfort which results from harassment, and then there are people so ultrasensitive that an imagined slight can send them into a tizzy. The former is understandable, harassment inexcusable. But trying to cater to professional victims is a dead-end road; you can still end up being accused of “condescending” to them for all your troubles.
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“Or could it be that women found medicine and the law such important, interesting and well-paying fields to get into, that they just barreled over whatever sexism was to be found there?”
This makes my stomach hurt. Women have fought for decades to make advancements in these fields, with many setbacks and at great personal cost. They didn’t just “barrel over” them…
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I’m certainly aware of all that; I didn’t use “barrel over” to imply it was a cakewalk, but was a powerful, continuing effort by generations of women.
No “cakewalk” implied in this “barrelling” here either:
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Bears barrel through obstacles, finish with 26th title
A week after receiving news of reinstatement, Cal (27-0) faced its first real test on the field against British Columbia, which significantly outplayed the Bears in the first half and held a 13-7 edge at intermission. In the pouring rain on a muddy San Francisco field, the Bears dug in their cleats and mounted a gritty comeback. A late try by Tom Rooke and a seemingly improbable conversion by flyhalf James Bailes gave Cal the 21-13 win…
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Sean Michael Robinson says:
>>>>How much is “many”? A dozen, several hundred? So there are huge quantities of women supposedly trying to get into reading or creating comics, who are then turned off by the unenlightened attitudes they find?>>>>
This is completely and totally true. Witness the incredible growth in manga, the percentage of women readers if manga in North America, and the failures of the Direct Market business model to sell to that legion of readers.
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But are females getting into reading & creating manga because the producers/sellers are so enlightenedly non-sexist, or ’cause they find the product more appealing?
(And what a mixed victory for feminism; that it’s not something like “Love and Rockets,” “Ghost World” or “Fun Home” getting girls and women into comics, but manga’s masses of ultra-girly fantasy, romance, “boy love” fare…)
Because the Japanese publishers did not paint themselves into a corner by so focusing on superheroes — it helped there was a far greater comics-reading audience there — and had “niche market” products ready that could appeal to women and girls.
(That superhero-focus reminds of the hazards of “monoculture”: a lack of diversity of strains in crops, thereby leaving them more vulnerable to changing climates, a new disease.)
Certainly superhero comics could hardly be less appealing to most women; and it’s a hoary truism that most comic shops tend to be awfully “boys’ club-ish”…
A lot of detailed gender-breakdown on manga in Japan:
“More stats on manga reading in Japan”: http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/?p=272
“Women Driving Mobile Manga”: http://comicsworthreading.com/2009/08/02/women-driving-mobile-manga/
“Readership Data Analysis of Ichijinsha Publications”: http://comipress.com/article/2008/06/25/3603
If the Patriarchy and its entrenched sexism is to blame for there being so few women into American comics, and there are so many women reading and creating manga in Japan, that must therefore mean that country’s culture and businesses are deeply enlightened and non-sexist, right?
Ah, but they’re not, are they?
“JAPAN IN TRANSITION — Sexism remains a rampant social disease”: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20001029a1.html
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Speaking Up Against Antiquated Sexism in Japan
It is not uncommon for me to feel disgust at the way women are treated in this country. I am often amazed not only at how men treat women, but also at how women treat women and how children view women. I am appalled and shocked by women’s subordinate position in Japanese society.
I am well aware that in other “advanced” nations too, there are a handful of problems between the sexes, from domestic violence to child pornography. However, of all affluent nations I have lived in or visited, I have never come across such a display of ignorance and discrimination against women as in Japan—a so-called “advanced” society and a member of the Group of Eight industrialized nations…
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http://joelasso.blogspot.com/2006/06/speaking-up-against-antiquated-sexism.html
” But trying to cater to professional victims is a dead-end road; you can still end up being accused of “condescending” to them for all your troubles.”
Trying to reach out to other kinds of people (by, for example, not calling them professional victims) is its own reward. You do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because you expect to be patted on the head for it. Trying to get more women writers on HU is something I do because I happen to think that women are half the population, and that as many of them have interesting things to say as men. That’s really a bare minimum thing to do for basic decency, as far as I’m concerned. The fact that it’s even marginally noticeable among comics blogs is a reason to be pissed off, not a reason to give me any special credit.
“But are females getting into reading & creating manga because the producers/sellers are so enlightenedly non-sexist, or ’cause they find the product more appealing?”
Mike, you go on to basically explain this yourself. This isn’t a choice; it’s both/and. Women often find sexism kind of offputting. Stories that focus on manly men doing manly things with the occasional woman cooing along side with her breasts hanging out; women may possibly not find that all that appealing.
Japan has serious problems with sexism. They also have a comics industry which is way more friendly to women. Life is complicated. But the fact that life is complicated is not an excuse for the egregious, historical sexism of the American comics industry.
Also, Nana is better than Ghost World and Fun Home, damn it. (Better than Gilbert Hernandez too; haven’t read Jaime really, so I can’t speak to that.)
“What, have women not yet heard about “the Pill”? Abortion?
We’re not talking about abysmal Islamic fundamentalist countries here; if women get preggers and their plans for a career are shunted off, if they end up saddled down with raising kids, the Patriarchy didn’t force them to do it…”
I can’t believe that you’re making a statement like this, even think you’re funny, using cute terms like “preggers.” Are you aware of the fact that some states have made it almost impossible to get an abortion (for a while, one state actually made it impossible to get an abortion!) and that funding has been drastically cut for Planned Parenthood, in many cases the only institution in certain states that provides healthcare and abortions, and that very briefly Planned Parenthood did not even EXIST in one state because its funds were cut off? Please read the facts on the internet.
AS a follow-up to what I just wrote, here’s this:
Wisconsin GOP Defunds Planned Parenthood, Denying Preventative Health Care To At Least 12,000 Women
Yesterday, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R)signed a budget that cuts funding for Planned Parenthood, after pushing the measure through the state Legislature without a single Democratic vote. Planned Parenthood denounced the decision to choke off state and federal funding to nine health centers in small communities that will deny preventative health care to 12,000 women who don’t have health insurance:
Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin says it has 27 health centers across the state, which provide birth control, cancer screenings, annual exams, and sexually transmitted disease testing and treatment to 73,000 patients every year.
Good lord…I actually missed that Mike had said that.
Besides Trina’s excellent points — Mike, the idea that women are responsible for their own oppression because they don’t have enough abortions is that rare sentiment which I think can be said to justly horrify people on every part of the political spectrum.
The point I was making, Mike, is that women are in general more responsible for child care and housekeeping even in cases where there’s a husband. They are in general the ones who disproportionately must give up career advancement to deal with children. You appear to be saying that no woman has a right to complain about this, since, after all, she could just have gotten an abortion. Do you realize how stupid and offensive that is?
It’s been pointed out to me that I should have closed the thread earlier than I did…and on reconsideration I am forced to agree. I’ve deleted the last couple of comments. Closing the barn door, but better than nothing I guess.