Robert Stanley Martin has been talking about the history and legacy of TCJ in our comments thread. I thought I’d collect the bulk (though not all!) of his discussion here.
Caroline Small: To do that, though, people have to get past this knee-jerk notion that craft and concept are an either/or choice. A lot of indie/alt cartooning has turned punk and underground ways of seeing the world into a fetish for harsh, angry expression and just plain ugliness, as though ugliness itself is sufficient to make a work edgy — as if ugliness is somehow inherently more meaningful than beauty. Like scatology and mundaneity, ugliness in indie comics is often a shortcut, a way of giving the illusion that something significant is going on when it really isn’t.
Well, I blame The Comics Journal.
While Groth and company always deserve credit for bringing a semblance of real-world critical standards and dialogue to the field, things have long been past the point where the values they promote have become a pernicious influence. In general, the magazine’s contributors have always implicitly evaluated new work through the prism of the Surrealist aesthetic as popularized by the Beats. The highest goal of art in this view is “self-expression.” Anyone who disputes this should consider why the magazine is all but defined by its idolatry of Crumb and his counterculture peers. Those are the artists who brought that aesthetic to comics. The magazine has always championed Surrealist/Beat modes such as confessional stories and dream narratives over every other approach. The accompanying fetishization of grittiness is why harshness and ugliness are seen as values. The lack of varnish is taken as a signifier of authenticity, and as such, the work is “purer” self-expression and therefore better as art.
Because “self-expression” is seen as the highest goal, things like literary craftsmanship and erudition are treated with suspicion if not outright hostility. That stuff is seen as “artifice” and “pretentiousness,” which in this view are qualities that corrupt art. Skillful drawing is still valued–Crumb’s influence has its good side–but I believe that’s because it’s seen as necessary in the “authenticity” pursuit.
It’s too bad that it isn’t generally recognized that with, say, Harvey Pekar, erudition enhanced the quality of his observations and the judgment used in presenting them.
However, reading is hard work, and adapting the thinking of the better prose writers is even more difficult. Maybe these artists already feel they have too much on their plate.
He continued:
I may be making a gross generalization, but it’s a pretty accurate one. In the mid-1980s an editorial decision was made by TCJ to essentially segregate the better adventure comics reviewers, such as Heidi MacDonald, to Amazing Heroes. In MacDonald’s case, they did this despite her demonstrable interest in all areas of the field and knowing it made TCJ look like there was a “No Girls Allowed” sign hung on the front door. If memory serves, an ME even complained about it in the pages of the magazine.
That was the time that TCJ settled into the general position that underground comics were the font from which all blessings flowed, and the stuff worth covering was material in that tradition. The anti-corporate-comic bias was so pronounced that there was essentially no coverage of Neil Gaiman or Grant Morrison until well into the early 1990s. This was about three years after the rest of the field had taken notice of them. The magazine loosened up a bit after that embarrassment, which happened to coincide with AH‘s demise. From that point on, you might see some discussion of the adventure end of the field in its pages, although the material was usually mocked. Writers go where they feel welcome, and if I was interested in writing about adventure comics, I’m not going to submit spec pieces to a magazine run by Gary Groth. The only time appreciative reviews of stuff from the corporate field occasionally found a congenial home there was during Tom Spurgeon’s or Dirk Deppey’s tenures as ME. Apart from that the emphasis was pretty much always on the U. S. alternative field. The biggest story in comics by far over the last decade was the rise of manga, and the coverage of that work has been conspicuously grudging.
TCJ was able to get away with this from a commercial standpoint because it consistently featured what was by far the best news coverage in the field. When the news operation died, the magazine’s days were numbered. The website is essentially Comics Comics operating under the TCJ logo, and its editors are part-time contractors rather than full-time staff. It’s also going to be a long time, if ever, before you see another print edition.
Kim Deitch was at best a second-tier figure during the underground’s heyday. He didn’t come into his own until the 1990s. I know he likes Kirby, Ditko, and Everett a lot, but I don’t see their influence anywhere in his work.
Who was in the tradition of crudeness before the undergrounds? The art in commercial comics after World War II has always struck me as being pretty slick.
Robert replied to a number of other commenters here.
Steven–
They never stopped reviewing them [pulp comics], but the tenor was generally, “Look at this piece of crap I accidentally bought last week.”
There was no rhyme or reason to any of it. When the mainstream review coverage was at its nadir, this is what you didn’t see reviews of but should have:
–Neil Gaiman’s Sandman and Black Orchid.
–Grant Morrison’s Animal Man.
–Jamie Delano’s Hellblazer.
–Todd McFarlane’s Spider-Man.
–Rob Liefeld’s X-Force and New Mutants.
–Jim Lee’s X-Men, or any of his Image work.
–Chris Claremont’s X-Men finale. (They could have killed two birds with one stone with that, as Lee drew it.)
–The Death of Superman.
–The Moore, Gaiman, Sim, and Miller issues of Spawn.
–Frank Miller’s Elektra Lives Again.
–Frank Miller’s initial Sin City serial. (Fiore reviewed the second one in his column.)
–Mike Mignola’s initial Hellboy material.If you don’t consider Fiore’s columns, the ’92 mainstream-comics ghetto issue, or the “Batglut” article that plagiarized Pauline Kael left and right, there’s a good deal more.
There was also next to no review coverage of the initial manga translations that were released beginning in the late ’80s (Akira, Lone Wolf and Cub, etc.). And as it was translated, I don’t see how the lack of bilingual reviewers was a problem.
By the way, I happen to think a good deal of this stuff is crap, but given its high profile, it should have been reviewed. That it wasn’t is a significant editorial failure.
I admit this is a tangent from the craft/concept debate. But it does illustrate TCJ’s myopia, which I do think is a big part of the problem. Groth and company are largely unable to think outside of their own box, and the magazine’s prominence made this pernicious.
Derik–
They tried to make up for the Gaiman oversight with multiple feature-length interviews in ’93 and ’94. But it was very belated. Gaiman made his first big splash in ’88 with Black Orchid. By the end of ’89, he was the most respected talent then working at Marvel or DC.
By the way, I don’t know if Caro agrees, but I think Gaiman is very relevant to the craft/concept debate. His material is much more sophisticated than anything I’ve seen from all but a handful of the major indy talents of the last quarter-century.
Mike–
There are a lot of great interviews, but there aren’t many noteworthy ones with mainstream talents in between Kim Fryer and Tom Spurgeon’s tenures (from #118 to #171). And of those, such as the ones with Alan Moore and Tim Truman, a good portion were conducted because the talents were taking an indy direction with their work, however short-lived. Apart from the news coverage, TCJ turned its back on almost the entire field during that time.
And a couple ending comments from Robert:
However, TCJ was a trade magazine back then, and it wasn’t acting like one with its features material. It handled those sections like it was an arts journal, of which there’s no expectation of currency or an encompassing treatment of the field’s output. The comprehensive news coverage made the magazine seem completely schizo.
And if you ignore the news coverage, it didn’t really work as an arts journal. They were actively hostile to theory-based criticism. What they wanted and published was journalistic criticism of the kind you’d see in a trade publication or the New York Times Book Review.



105 Comments
Personally I love the fact TCJ doesn’t spend much time looking at super hero comics. None at all would be even better.
That whole list of things Robert posted would be comic books he likes, but which don’t people who love comics, but who have no interest in super heroes. There are many places to read about super hero comics already.
Noah–
Well, this is a surprise. Fairly inchoate on my part, though.
Holly–
I don’t feed trolls. Please take it elsewhere.
Sorry, “but which don’t people who love comics, but who have no interest in super heroes.”
Should have read. “but there are people who love comics, but who have no interest in super heroes?”
Robert…hopefully a pleasant surprise! I thought people would be interested, which seems to be the case.
I’m not sure why you think Holly is a troll…? But in any case, I think the question of how much/how little genre to cover is one that tcj has wrestled with over the years. It’s something I think about here as well to some extent. I’m sympathetic to Robert’s feeling that genre is worthwhile and important, and that you’re missing something if you don’t pay attention to it. On the other hand, mainstream comics are so bad even for someone who likes genre that it’s hard to justify taking them at all seriously.
We somewhat get around the problem by being willing to talk about other mediums (girl with the dragon tattoo is pretty much crap, but it looks like a work of genius compared to Red Hood.)
Incidentally…I think you may have the idea that Robert is really into superhero comics or something, Holly? That’s just not even close to being the case. Robert even says he doesn’t necessarily like the books he lists — he’s just saying it’s an important part of the industry. I’m sure he reads fewer contemporary superhero comics than I do (and I read almost none.)
My only point is TCJ reflects the viewpoint of the editors, and it suits people like myself that they don’t review super hero comic books.
There are many, many places to read about super hero comic books for people who like that kind of material.
Noah–
Remarks like her characterization of me as a superhero fanboy are written in blatant bad faith. No one with even a passing familiarity with my writing could honestly say something like that. This is not the first time, either.
I didn’t mean to give the impression that TCJ should have given review coverage to that list of work because I think genre is important. Here’s an analogy that I hope illustrates the point. Try to imagine a U. S. film magazine in the ’90s that called itself “The Magazine of Movie News and Criticism” and published in-depth news about the Hollywood filmmaking scene as a matter of course. That news reporting was also considered the best in the field and made it an essential read if you were interested in film. Then imagine that magazine only giving review coverage to independent films, old-film revivals, and select films from abroad. There were next to no reviews published of Titanic, Jurassic Park, or other popcorm blockbusters. Popular award favorites like Apollo 13, Jerry Maguire, and As Good As It Gets were also routinely ignored. The only critical discussion Cameron, Spielberg, and Zemeckis received were dismissive remarks in passing. Further, the magazine claimed its mission was to elevate the level of film criticism, but it was overtly hostile to the dominant trends in scholarly arts criticism from at least the mid-’70s on, and it refused to publish anything in that mold. That sounds like a very peculiar film magazine to me, and that’s what TCJ was to comics.
I think it’s undeniable that TCJ was very peculiar. I liked that about it; it never escaped its amateur fanzine roots. It was always an idiosyncratic mess.
I think there’s a lot of good things about that; as a result there’s space in comics criticism that there is maybe less of in other fields for people with different backgrounds and perspectives to get not only an audience but a certain level of institutional support. I don’t think it’s exactly an accident that the Journal gave me a platform (even if they regretted it later on.)
But I think you’re right that there have been downsides too. The fissures between journalistic critics and academic ones; the mistrust between the mainstream and alternative; the difficulty with integrating (especially popular) manga — I don’t think tcj caused those things, but they’re all part of its legacy to some extent.
Oh, I’ve by and large enjoyed the magazine a great deal since I first started reading it in the 1980s. I wouldn’t have written for it otherwise. If things hadn’t gone sour between me and Gary on the business end of things, I’d probably still be contributing.
The problem with the magazine is that it promoted an aesthetic insularity that many in the indy-comics field have embraced. I think its success over time also promoted the notion that such insularity was a viable option. The irony is that success was most likely a result of its generalist aspects, not its insular ones. The field needs to gain appreciation of the value to be had in taking a broader view.
“By the way, I don’t know if Caro agrees, but I think Gaiman is very relevant to the craft/concept debate. His material is much more sophisticated than anything I’ve seen from all but a handful of the major indy talents of the last quarter-century.”
I find it hard to evaluate Gaiman’s work. Sandman was one of the earliest comics I started reading after a pretty brief superhero phase, so there’s a little too much nostalgia wrapped up in his work for me.
I was at TCJ in the early 90s and I guess I represented the POV that you speak of as well as anyone. I loathed mainstream comics. I made serious efforts to read the ones people said were good, like Animal Man, and found them terrible. For the most part, I still hate mainstream superhero comics. Gary can answer why he thought about them they way he did, but I think a lot of it was political–they were assembly line product produced by uncaring corporations. But my main complaint was that they weren’t interesting to me. (Obviously I could go deeper than this, but my interest level isn’t all that high…)
But here’s one thing that you have to remember–just how freaking dominant superhero comics were–in sales, of course, but also in visibility. Going to a comic convention was painful–and the certainly was nothing like SPX or TCAF back then. Wizard celebrated the worst artistic values imaginable and was he single largest comics publication (it outsold the comics it covered!) there was a general feeling in the office that they had their media, their conventions, their movies, their stores, etc. TCJ would be for “us”–and it felt like it was the only thing for us.
As someone interested in non-superhero comics, I feel like there is an infrastructure that I can tap into to enhance my enjoyment of these books. I can easily read reviews of just about any comic I want to. I can go to the Brooklyn Comix & Graphics Festival., etc. but in the early 90s, TCJ was my life raft. (one that amazingly helped pay my salary.)
I think this context is important.
(Sorry about all the typos. When I comment from my iPad, I can’t scroll up to reread my comment. Grrr.)
As to what Robert (Boyd) says here.
For me the worst parts of the magazine were the harsh reviews of mainstream comic books. It was much preferable when the magazine began to increasingly ignore them.
I can’t say I hate super hero comic books, but I do know I have no interest in them.
I agree with holly: I blame TCJ for not forgetting mainstream comics completely. Unfortunately “alternative” means alternative to something… It was like living on the shadow of whatever dreck the big two churned out. I remember being mad at the members of the comix@ list (supposedly dedicated to the discussion of alternative comics) for not forgetting whatever hack x or hack y was doing at the time. On the other hand it’s true that a comics mag with yours truly as the managing editor would sink in no time at all. There’s not a reading public for good comics out there, let alone those who are interested enough to read about good comics.
Robert–
Thanks for the inside view.
As I wrote, I enjoyed the magazine a great deal at the time. The only reason I criticize the editorial bent of the features coverage was because the magazine otherwise presented itself as a generalist publication. If I’d been there I would have strenuously argued that keeping a mainstream specialist such as Heidi MacDonald among the regular reviewers was imperative. If for no other reason, it’s just to keep an eye on what’s going on. There’s something to even the least of the mainstream work on that list. I don’t think I had much more time for mainstream stuff than you or Gary did back then, but even I could see that McFarlane, Liefeld, and Jim Lee represented a stylistic shift from the other adventure artists at the time. TCJ would have been better if it had someone on hand who could explain what they were about. It was a very positive development a few years later when Tom Spurgeon filled that lack by setting up Ray Mescallado with a regular column.
You write, “there was a general feeling in the office that they had their media, their conventions, their movies, their stores, etc. TCJ would be for “us”–and it felt like it was the only thing for us.” That’s where things went really wrong in my view. It’s thinking that leads directly into creating a clique, and that brings, as it did, to a blinkered perspective, litmus tests, and a general hostility to anything that challenges the clique’s precepts.
The clique tendencies of the field were always the real enemy, I think.
It’s interesting, because I’ve also heard people say that the magazine went off the rails when it began to pay more attention to mainstream and more popular work.
I wonder if part of the issue is that there was just such a small audience for art comics back then. It’s hard not to be a little cliquish when you’re a tiny community and feel (with some justice) that you’re under siege, or that you really need to make a space for the work you like.
Pardon the presumption, but imagine my position, being a clique of exactly one.
All I can say is in the 90′s every time TCJ featured an interview with someone “super” I’d skip that issue. I have an old copy here and just quickly I can mention not purchasing; #202 Kevin Eastman, #209 Frank Miller, #216 Kurt Busiek, #219 Kyle Baker, #221 Paul Chadwick, #222 Eric Larson, #223 Alex Ross, #246 Steve Rude.
Most of us live by the same rules. We all have an amount of money we can spend on comics, and an amount of time we spend reading them. Increasingly since the 90′s it’s not possible for me to keep up with all the things which look interesting. It doesn’t make sense to me to try and stay aware of what’s going in in the mainstream, when I can’t keep pace with loads of things which look interesting.
Just the other day a TCJ reviewer linked to the site of a British publisher called “Nobrow” and visiting the site I saw comic book after comic book which looked worth checking out, all of them were beautifully crafted, and none of the creators were people I’d ever heard of before.
Super hero comic books always have gotten far more attention than they need (in my opinion). It’s probably worse than ever because of the Hollywood association. Over the past few months DC has gotten a great deal of attention based on marketing. I’m really pleased that TCJ and “HU” have almost ignored that Hollywood patterned promotional blitz.
I take it as a positive TCJ has grown up, and no longer thinks it’s cute to write “this sucks” take downs of super hero comics as part of it’s regular offerings.
Holly–
I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here. Nobody’s saying a reader should feel obligated to spend money and time with stuff he or she isn’t interested in.
I’m glad if TCJ stopped thinking it worthwhile “to write ‘this sucks’ takedowns of superhero comics as part of its regular offerings.” I’ve never advocated they do it.
See, I kind of like the occasional “this sucks” takedown. Adds some spice to the mix….
It’s not good when it defines virtually all of your review coverage. And the nerd-war bomb-throwing TCJ indulged in got really ugly at times. This isn’t a “this sucks” review, but it was probably the low point. A Detroit-area retailer I knew was so pissed off by the essay that he stopped carrying everything Fantagraphics published. He wouldn’t even special-order stuff for customers. I don’t think he was alone, either. That piece was really unnecessary and appallingly tacky to boot. It certainly wasn’t in the interest of creating space for the work TCJ was advocating.
Oh, yeah, I’ve read that. And yes, I agree it was a low point for Gary.
What Robert calls myopia is simply a straightforward lack of calculation, a not uncommon facet of small circulation magazines. It is lamentable that they missed out on some stories, but most of what Robert cites would’ve elicited the “pulp crap” jibes anyway, and rightfully so. They probably would’ve sold a few more copies if they had done what Robert mentioned above, but that’s about it.
And to echo what Domingos said, let’s just say TCJ had gone in a more academic direction. How much longer would they’ve survived? It’s not like they had a foundation, government or college to bankroll their publication. And how many writers back then were capable of writing about comics in the theory-based fashion?
“I think its success over time also promoted the notion that such insularity was a viable option. The irony is that success was most likely a result of its generalist aspects, not its insular ones. The field needs to gain appreciation of the value to be had in taking a broader view.”
And a “broader view” means looking closer at mainstream comic books, something that most of the world barely pays attention to? I think your argument would be on more solid ground if the industry wasn’t as dismal as it almost always has been.
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
Remarks like [Holly's] characterization of me as a superhero fanboy are written in blatant bad faith. No one with even a passing familiarity with my writing could honestly say something like that. This is not the first time, either.
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I’ve not noticed past remarks from her along that vein; however, in this instance she simply makes the reasonable point that the scant coverage The Comics Journal gave to mainstream comics — overwhelmingly superhero fare — that you faulted them for, was appreciated by others likewise not interested in the Spandex mob; that “There are many, many places to read about super hero comic books for people who like that kind of material.”
As I’d mentioned earlier, though, trashing even well-done work just because it is superhero comics, and therefore considered inherently worthless, or, as Gary Groth was unfortunately prone to, damning virtually all working in that field as “hacks” — no matter how much professionalism, care, or imagination they managed to put in, in that assembly-line situation — is certainly deserving of condemnation.
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Try to imagine a U. S. film magazine in the ’90s that called itself “The Magazine of Movie News and Criticism” and published in-depth news about the Hollywood filmmaking scene as a matter of course. That news reporting was also considered the best in the field and made it an essential read if you were interested in film. Then imagine that magazine only giving review coverage to independent films, old-film revivals, and select films from abroad. There were next to no reviews published of Titanic, Jurassic Park, or other popcorm blockbusters…
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A most vivid, and accurate, analogy! Yes, TCJ failed to accurately reflect the all-inclusiveness its self-description indicated.
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
Unfortunately “alternative” means alternative to something… It was like living on the shadow of whatever dreck the big two churned out…
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Heh! It’s like “alternative” politics in America…
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
…This [ http://archives.tcj.com/2_archives/e_groth1191.html ] isn’t a “this sucks” review, but it was probably the low point…That piece was really unnecessary and appallingly tacky to boot.
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I wrote up a comprehensive defense of Gary’s essay in the TCJ message board when, years later, it was brought up in a thread called (semijokingly) “Gary Groth’s Crimes Against Humanity.” No surprise that the current administrators of the magazine’s online presence have still not gotten around to bringing the archived message board back.
I argued that Groth wasn’t so much attacking Kalish as a person (he was generous in praising her admirable qualities) but reacting to the hagiographic tone of adulation prevalent everywhere else; highlighting that she was cynically pursuing an industry policy catering to the worst inclinations of its readership, and deserved to be criticized for it. To wit:
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Groth says:
Once I witnessed a retailer timidly question Marvel’s strategy of filling their comics with sex and violence; Kalish’s reply, which was almost refreshingly free of the specious nod to morality to which less assured marketing tacticians would resort, was that little boys liked sex and violence and Marvel was in the business of selling comics to little boys. Hence and therefore.
This is what I meant by chilling; there was an irreducible logic to her arguments that were irrefutable (except on unprofitable and therefore irrelevant moral grounds)…
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And, why the hell should someone’s career be whitewashed just ’cause they’ve died? (If George W. Bush were to die tomorrow, all “public figures” would fall all over themselves to praise his saintliness, patriotism, dedication to family…) Should not utterly amoral business decisions and approaches be held up for criticism?
To those who argued that Gary should’ve waited “a decent interval” to make his case, wouldn’t most everyone by then have forgotten who she was, or absorbed the “Carol Kalish was a Saint” crud (with no one saying otherwise) issuing from all the other shameless suckup comics “news” outlets?
Look how well waiting, and waiting, and waiting to refute the “Swift Boats Veterans for Truth” or “Obama is a Foreign Muslim” packs of lies worked out for Kerry and Obama…
Mike, when someone is a public figure, obituaries are a chance to reassess their legacy. So some of the obits of Christopher Hitchens were less than laudatory; he’s a public figure, and so it goes.
Attacking an essentially private individual because her friends are sorry that she died — even if they’re really, really sorry that she died — is just unpleasant. She wasn’t John Kerry. She wasn’t Christopher Hitchens. Most people wouldn’t have absorbed the “Carol Kalish was a saint” meme, because she was a private individual, and most people simply would never have heard of her, even in the industry.
Gary’s really smart, an excellent writer, a great editor, and has championed many noble causes. Comics is lucky to have him. However, his certainty of his own righteousness, and his conviction that good manners are a weakness, can sometimes lead him to treat other people poorly. This is easily the worst instance of that.
Who cares what anybody likes or dislikes? It’s the COMICS Journal, of course it should talk about superhero comics. Superheroes are a big part of it–often the elephant in the room.
And the Journal should talk about newspaper comics. And manga. And webcomics. Just because “I don’t like it, it sucks” is your opinion doesn’t mean that certain topics are unworthy of consideration.
STOP BEING FANS, ALLA YOUSE
Noah (and Robert), I’ve argued plenty about the Kalish piece in the past, so it’s a bit boring these days, nevertheless: She might not have been a public figure, but the outpouring of pseudo-grief certainly was. It got really obnoxious in the pages of CBG, for example. She was being publicly constructed as a saint, and that was what Groth was taking down. It was a good deed.
There was backlash when TCJ started to cover fewer superhero titles in the 80s, then there was backlash when it started to cover them more in the 90s. I’d say imagine a situation in film where all the other movie magazines only covered action films. How do you make a more inclusive magazine? TCJ was more inclusive than all others in the comics industry.
Darryl-
Sing it!
Mike–
Let me add to what Noah said about the Kalish piece. The heart of my problem with the Kalish piece isn’t the critical view of her role in the industry. I think that was a perfectly appropriate subject of discussion, although given the circumstances a more measured tone would have gone over better. What’s obnoxious about that piece are the parts that sneer at several who were eulogizing Kalish. Everybody’s heard fatuous things said about the departed during funerals, but you don’t ridicule the speakers for it. You respect that they’re trying to express their feelings as best they can and leave it at that. Mockery in that kind of situation is indefensible.
Steven–
Things have got bogged down in certain details throughout this, so let me try to pull the overall argument together.
Caro criticized the indy scene for being stunted by seeing craft and concept as an either/or choice and embracing ugliness as a short cut to relevance. I responded that this was borne of the intellectual environment fostered by Gary Groth and The Comics Journal, who have aggressively promoted a Beat-style “self-expression” aesthetic as the most fruitful path for artists. They have been so dedicated to this that they have written off pretty much everything done in comics over the last 40 years that can’t be reconciled with that aesthetic in some way. The indy scene has heavily bought into these exclusionary attitudes, and in terms of their own practice, they reject craftsmanship and conceptual approaches from outside that aesthetic as things that will corrupt the purity of their “self-expression.” These attitudes are myopic and ultimately solipsistic, they’re borne of fannishness and clique-mindedness, and adherence to them hurts the field a lot more than it helps.
I brought up TCJ’s dismissal of mainstream comics as an early example of these attitudes. In the late ’80s, the magazine exiled intelligent reviewers who specialized in mainstream comics from their pages. They spent years more or less ignoring the highest-profile mainstream work in their features offerings, and there were instances, such as with Neil Gaiman for a good while, where that conduct became an embarrassment. The irony of all this was that the magazine was presenting itself as a generalist publication. It promoted itself as that to new readers, and the news sections reinforced it with their coverage of the entire field. The hostility to theory-based criticism is just another example of how solipsistic the editorial attitudes of the magazine had become. They claimed to be promoting the value of criticism to the field, yet they were opposed to the modes that were then producing the most vital work in other areas.
I believe the exclusionary antipathy to mainstream comics, non-journalistic criticism, story craftsmanship, and conceptual approaches from other fields are all expressions of the same tendency. That tendency is pretty much the defining feature of the intellectual environment fostered by TCJ and Gary Groth. They want a field where everything that doesn’t conform to the values of their clique is by definition invalid.
They should never compare themselves to other magazines. They should just cover their beat, which is All Comics.
Steven–
A couple of other things.
I don’t want to keep on second-guessing 20-year-old editorial decisions, but if it was a lack of calculation, then they were being exceptionally lazy. The Harvey Awards at that time hadn’t been compromised by ballot-stuffing campaigns and were reasonably indy-friendly. (They were certainly moreso than the Eisners.) TCJ wasn’t even offering decent review coverage of the work that was getting nominated.
I didn’t say that they should have gone in a more academic direction. I just think that they should have been open to publishing good theory-based criticism. Having it as part of the mix would have been a positive.
Robert: “They [TCJ] want a field where everything that doesn’t conform to the values of their clique is by definition invalid.”
You are describing every magazine in the world. That’s what’s called an editorial policy. As for Gaiman I can’t see the problem in ignoring a mediocre writer.
If a reader didn’t like the editorial position of the Journal, I can understand. After all, magazines can’t be all things to all people. But the accusation of forming a clique seems silly. Let’s say the Comics Journal did cover superhero comics in the early 90s in a more inclusive way. Could you then say that it was ignoring newspaper strips. And if it included newspaper strips, couldn’t it be blames for not covering Japanese and European and Latin American comics more closely? And if it covered them, how can you excuse it for not covering other art forms–instead of just catering to the comics clique. In short, a magazine has to have some kind of focus. Non-mainstream comics was our focus.
Instead of clique, consider the words “constituency” or “market segment.” Magazines have an idea of their ideal reader, and this ideal reader evolves over time. Under editors Greg Baisden, Helena Harvilicz and Frank Young, that ideal reader was someone who had little interest in (and even antipathy for) superheroes. It was someone who liked the comics that were bubbling up from below, from the Xerox machines of the nation (which is why I started my column “Minimalism”). It was a reader who was looking for a new history of comics that was a counter to the then prevailing superhero-centric notion of comics history = “Golden Age” to “Silver Age” to “Bronze Age”. We weren’t totally consistent, and the hostility expressed towards Superhero comics was over-the-top, but since hardly anyone was paying attention to the kinds of comics we LOVED, we felt justified in making them our near-exclusive focus. If in doing so, we were shutting out the super-hero fans, so what–99% of the comics industry was devoted to catering to their tastes already. They had loudly and repeatedly proclaimed they didn’t need the Journal–or alternative comics.
Indeed, the basic feeling of the entire American industry at the time–the shops, the conventions, the distributors, the fan magazines, and most of the fans themselves–was a desire to see us (the people who read and produced and wrote about alternative comics) just go away. Larry Reid had a word for the comics stores that supported us–”The Fantagraphics 50.” Our existence as a publisher and the existence of the comics we liked was utterly precarious and dependent on the Direct Markets stores that for the most part loathed anything remotely alternative(there was no bookstore distribution at that time, really).
There are two ways to deal with that kind of environment. One is the MLK integrationist approach, and the other is the Malcolm X separatist approach. For a relatively few years (the time I was there before Spurge joined up), we went the Malcolm X route. It may have been a mistake, but our feeling was that we didn’t want to join a club full of people who hated our guts.
And in our clumsy way, we published a magazine for people who felt utterly alienated from the mainstream-superhero world. I can’t speak for everyone involved in the Journal at the time, but I think it was a necessary move. We had to build up this alternative art history of comics and stake a claim for all the cartoonists working outside the ridiculous conventions of the mainstream. It lead us into a somewhat extreme position (temporarily, I’d argue), but it helped give space for a lot of non-mainstream talents to develop and receive attention.
you said: “…MLK…”
I said: “Bad timing.”
Look, I’m not sympathetic to anybody in comics whose perspective is “that’s covered by other venues.” I don’t care at all about that point of view. I am fluent in comics across the board, across the world, across history. Any publication whose editorial policy seeks to minimize any branches of comics or cartooning based on something so petty as “like/dislike” is dangerously suspect to me.
SUSPECT!
Superhero comics, Vertigo-style, French stuff, Italian stuff, Korean stuff, Mexican comics, American comic strips, internet digital tech. It’s all or nothing. Comics isn’t exactly a large field and it’s not exactly difficult to find one or two experts on the various branches.
Running a blog is one thing, but if your publication calls itself “The Comics Journal,” that publication ought to care about COMICS, full stop.
Well, for the reasons I have laid out, we felt otherwise. Likewise, I don’t feel like the New York Review of Books should feel obliged to review Harlequin Romances and Artforum should feel obliged to devote expensive editorial space to Thomas Kinkade. “Like/Dislike” isn’t petty–it’s about having critical standards. You can question TCJ’s critical standards–you should, in fact–but asking them to be join “Team Comics” is like asking to not have standards.
It’s not “team comics.” It’s just lying if one claims to cover a medium and be the important voice of that medium if it ignores…you know, the culturally larger aspects of that medium (superhero comics, syndicated comics, manga, webcomics).
Let’s be reality, there’s simply NO validity to that “critical standard.” I don’t think the alternative people who turn their noses up are high and mighty, I’m convinced that most of them are afraid to be challenged on their precious opinions, that’s why they talk about comics that NOBODY EVER HAS HEARD OF.
It’s beyond simple cowardice, it’s just self-important puffery. Like people talking about who’s the most important NYC HC band from 1986-88 between Second Avenue and Avenue A. The parameters are so narrow that it amounts to NOTHING AT ALL.
“Running a blog is one thing, but if your publication calls itself “The Comics Journal,””
How about running a blog called “The Comics Journal”?
Robert–
I don’t think the New York Review of Books should be covering the entirety of the Harlequin romance line, but I do think they should run reviews of the latest Dan Brown or J. K. Rowling books when they come out. Moving over to the New York Times, Michiko Kakutani is the first-string book reviewer. She has reviewed Brown, Rowling, et al. for the paper, and often on the front page. I wasn’t faulting TCJ for ignoring every last little thing Marvel or DC published, I was faulting it for ignoring their highest-profile creators. And given their share of the field at the time, that’s ignoring quite a bit.
I don’t think you were creating a clique back then. But that’s what it has evolved into. That clique’s attitudes are now stunting the field, for the reasons me, Caro, Noah, and others have outlined in various pieces. Whatever usefulness those attitudes had 20 years ago, it’s long gone now.
I’m not especially interested in revisiting the magazine’s editorial decisions. What’s done is done. But since I believe the thinking behind them is the root of the current problem, faulting them is quite necessary. If basic assumptions aren’t successfully challenged, there’s no moving away from them.
I’m 35. I’m from Brasil.
I bought both Wizard and TCJ for many years (and Viz’s Pulp and their manganime mag that I forgot the name), during the pre-internet 90s and early 00s (and they were REALLY expensive for a brasilian).
I also worked in a comic shop here for years, also throughout the 90s and 00s.
The following are my disjointed thoughts on the post/thread, pardon the lack of organization:
Maybe it was true in the 80s, but this talk that TCJ didn’t cover “Superhero comics, Vertigo-style, French stuff, Italian stuff, Korean stuff, Mexican comics, American comic strips, internet digital tech.” does not ring true at all for me, at least from the 90s onwards.
Now it is easy to download info about comics around the world, but before the internet, the TCJ was the first place I heard of maaaany artists, including alternative manga.
And I don’t think anyone ever mistook TCJ for a generalist magazine. Seeing a artist you never heard of even after years collecting comics on the cover is a message on its own. If you knew every name on a TCJ cover, you probably already had a opinion on mainstream comics.
Personally, back then, opening TCJ and seeing many of the same comics reviewed as Wizard (or CBG or Hero whatever or Amazing whatever) would have seem to me as an extreme waste of my money. I sure didn’t need this kind of redundancy back then.
I agree with everything Robert Boyd said about “context”.
This notion that TCJ was more influential or decisive for young comics artists than punk rock, beat lit, nan goldin, and gazillions of other stuff that glorifies subjective “ugliness” is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Videogames and 80s cartoons seem way more influential than TCJ, for example.
The idea that “mainstream comics suck” is really easy to get into, with or without TCJ, many of my friends(and clients) who don’t read english came to the same conclusion during the 90s. Should see the faces every time I say I like Alex Ross’ work.
Seems to me that Fantagraphics editorial direction was way more influential than TCJ in shaping the current “scene”.
The Journal has been influential in the careers of some artists, in my opinion. I was told this by one of these artists. But I don’t think anyone has any illusions about its importance in the world of culture as a whole. It has always been a low-circulation magazine in a medium until recently considered second-rate.
Hmm, I think the medium is still considered second rate. So that means in the past it was considered third rate.
This is one of those debates where I can see where both sides are coming from. Like Robert, I have some problems with where TCJ’s legacy has taken us. But I don’t necessarily feel like it would have been especially desirable for TCJ to have had a very different editorial policy.
To the extent that TCJ’s legacy is problematic, it’s because it was so successful. Many of the battles it fought — for the recognition of comics as art, for the recognition of certain artists like Crumb and the Hernandez Bros. — have been won, to the extent that such things can be won. That’s undermined TCJ’s contrarian, oppositional stance; it’s become the orthodoxy, in a lot of ways.
Better by far TCJ’s orthodoxy than the mainstream, goodness knows. And I don’t think orthodoxies are even evil in themselves; they’re unavoidable, in any case. But I think it’s worth thinking about how that orthodoxy works and questioning parts of it, not so much to say, “this should have been done differently”, as to say, “this is where we are now; is that where we want to be?”
Obviously, it’s very much a tribute to Gary and to the magazine that TCJ’s legacy (not to mention its current incarnation) is still worth debating and thinking about.
Been meaning to jump in on this for a couple of days now & didn’t have the chance; now the points I wanted to make have largely been said. But I won’t let that stop me…
The gist of Robert and Daryl’s objection to TCJ’s mainstream quarantine – “It’s the COMICS Journal, not just the Art / Alternative Comics Journal” – was a pretty common criticism at the time. And it is a completely fair one. Really, you’re right. But I think that every time TCJ has heeded this advice and tried a “big tent” centrism, it has been far less interesting. I’m thinking primarily of the Evans / Hick era immediately after Spurgeon, where most issues tried to cover both poles with two feature interviews, one mainstream, one alternative (often with 2 covers to match). This was, on the face of it, a good and perfectly sensible editorial philosophy. Except my recollection is that nearly all of the mainstream interviews turned out to be really, really boring. The same tendency turned up (though not with every issue frequency) in the later Mike Dean run (and maybe Dirk Deppey’s issues? My memory of the handoff point is hazy. At any rate, I’m thinking the Rucka / Simone / Kirkman interviews that ran in this general period…)
I think that part of the problem with the interviews in these periods (from my vague recollections… and I’m not about to reread them to check) is they seem to have been done with the motivation of “Well, we need to cover these guys because they seem to be popular with a bunch of people.” And not for any other compelling reason. And they follow this general pattern of explaining the day to day workings of the sausage factory, but from the perspective of people who have learned to like the taste of sausage. (I feel like I just came up with that phrase, but I’m sure it’s not new…) They don’t offer any illuminating insight, and in their dull sameness, don’t really even succeed as indictments. (Not that they’re intended to be.)
I’m not trying to say that “All mainstream artists are intrinsically boring,” but rather, that these interviewers did not do their jobs in making their subjects compelling. They read like interviews conducted just because of a general mandate to cover everything, not because they had anything specifically interesting to say. And I think that is the key point: the tail is wagging the dog in the name of full coverage.
A good counter-example would be Tom Spurgeon’s excellent interview with Joe Casey (from Milo George’s fine run as editor). Casey is a guy who definitely toils in the commercial salt mines, and Spurgeon’s smart line of questioning got Casey to really illustrate the challenges of navigating the creative landmines of the industry. It also turned me onto his work; I had never paid him any attention before, but since the interview, I’ll always at least give his stuff a look. And I think it’s because Spurgeon forced Casey to articulate his goals and methods, and I found his articulation convincing. (Others’ mileage may vary…)
I guess you can probably argue that many of the alternative cartoonist interviews in TCJ were just as toothless as the mainstream ones. If anyone wants to cite examples, I’ll consider your case. But I really don’t see it. You can damn “self expression” as onanistic and indulgent or what-have-you… but I’d argue that the minimum level of serious thought going into that process is on average much higher than that in the front-of-Diamond-catalog set. (The James Kochalka interview may not have been a high point for TCJ, but God, it was better than the Erik Larsen interview that same issue.)
Having said everything I did, in the interest of total honesty I should note…
My interest in comics goes through various cycles, and of late, I have become kind of tired of capital-A Artistic Expression, myself. I’ve been much more interested in looking at old mainstream guys like Colan, Aparo, Buscema, et al… I’ve kind of been enamored of the whole romance of hackdom… I love reading old comics and just imagining these guys who have been through the mill pulling an all-nighter and occasionally coming up with something inspired.
Point being: I TOTALLY FUCKING LOVE IT whenever TCJ runs one of Gary’s interviews with these guys (I guess it’s the “third pole” on the TCJ interview axis), and I can’t really say there’s a fundamental difference between these interviews and those “modern mainstream” interviews I decried in my last comment. So maybe those interviews will age like wine, or maybe I’m just a hypocrite.
But my interests do shift. (I’ll care about Johnny Negron one day, I promise!) I’m glad TCJ covers the arts-side, and I look forward to using it as a resource when I get come back around to it…
I agree with everything blackbrain, Robert Boyd and Chris K just said. Robert Stanley Martin and Caro are discounting the surrounding culture that influences and helps set the standard that artists reach for. If TCJ had never existed, the indy comix scene would be equally as anti-craft as it is now. If a comic book artist is not interested in more ambitious storytelling, it’s not necessarily an anti-writing bias but a complacent obliviousness that comes with growing up in a conformist culture.
“but I do think they should run reviews of the latest Dan Brown or J. K. Rowling books when they come out.”
Don’t hold your breath on that one.
“I’m convinced that most of them are afraid to be challenged on their precious opinions, that’s why they talk about comics that NOBODY EVER HAS HEARD OF.”
Ayo, you’re being silly.
And you’re being stupid.
Wow, that was easy :)
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Noah Berlatsky says:
Mike, when someone is a public figure, obituaries are a chance to reassess their legacy. So some of the obits of Christopher Hitchens were less than laudatory; he’s a public figure, and so it goes.
Attacking an essentially private individual because her friends are sorry that she died — even if they’re really, really sorry that she died — is just unpleasant. She wasn’t John Kerry. She wasn’t Christopher Hitchens. Most people wouldn’t have absorbed the “Carol Kalish was a saint” meme, because she was a private individual, and most people simply would never have heard of her, even in the industry…
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Heavens, didn’t you read what Gary wrote? Charles Reese “got it.” Groth regrets how…
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…genuine private sorrow has turned sickeningly into public blubbering that, aided and abetted by CBG’s editorial yahoos…has resulted in nothing less than sensationalizing her death, exploiting the crude sentimentality of its readership, and, sad to say, distorting and falsifying Kalish’s contribution to the profession.
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http://archives.tcj.com/2_archives/e_groth1191.html
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
…What’s obnoxious about that piece are the parts that sneer at several who were eulogizing Kalish. Everybody’s heard fatuous things said about the departed during funerals, but you don’t ridicule the speakers for it. You respect that they’re trying to express their feelings as best they can and leave it at that. Mockery in that kind of situation is indefensible.
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If it were genuine grief-exaggerated sentiment — “My mother was a saint!” –I could understand that and indulge that reaction.
However, when public figures — and the CBG, by its canonizing published coverage, hardly a private eulogy stated at a funeral, helped transform Kalish from an “industry insider” into such among its then-considerable comics-fan readership — die, it’s routine for eulogies from certain sources to have all matter of contemptible motivations, pushing ideological agendas.
Thus, Ronnie Reagan — whose corpse, at best, should’ve been tossed in a sewer — was publicly remembered, even by Democratic politicos, as a toweringly noble figure who brought down Communism, and Made Us Feel Proud To Be Americans Again; some ruthless, conniving, polluting industrialist would be hailed by, say, The Wall Street Journal as a brilliant empire-builder who created thousands of jobs…
…and a wholly commercially-minded, highly skilled publicity flack for mainstream comics, utterly cynical about pushing “sex and violence” for “little boys,” is hailed as one of the greats in the field of comics, “a comics visionary,” who “was clean and bright and pure inside…She lusted after the truth“…
…We’re seeing agenda-driven image-burnishing at work.
And, who was particularly pushing this “Kalish as Saint” image? Why, Comics Buyer’s Guide, a magazine overwhelmingly focused on slavering over/pushing superhero comics, and enjoying a cozy relationship with Kalish’s corporate masters.
Moreover, what BETTER time to push these reality-altering images, than when most everyone is under the “let’s not speak ill of the dead” attitude, thinking (or being told) “it’s in poor taste to criticize the public grief of others,” no matter how phony, self-serving, downright lying, or ideologically motivated it might be?
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
Robert: “They [TCJ] want a field where everything that doesn’t conform to the values of their clique is by definition invalid.”
You are describing every magazine in the world. That’s what’s called an editorial policy. As for Gaiman I can’t see the problem in ignoring a mediocre writer.
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In defense of Robert’s argument, though Gaiman is not one of the very absolute greatest comics writers, he’s still head-and-shoulders above most in the field. (OK, that’s “damning with faint praise”…) And, he particularly made his mark with work that was either non-superhero, or refreshingly different approaches to superheroics, as in Black Orchid.
Which, with TCJ’s hatred of how the comics field was so massively superhero-skewed, was an authorial approach (as with Lapham’s Stray Bullets)you’d think they’d at least recognize and encourage, whatever they might feel about the worth of the particular titles in question.
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Ayo says:
It’s not “team comics.” It’s just lying if [The Comics Journal] claims to cover a medium and be the important voice of that medium if it ignores…you know, the culturally larger aspects of that medium (superhero comics, syndicated comics, manga, webcomics).
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There: http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/Mike_59_Hunter/TCJ_Legalese.jpg
Now’re you satisfied?
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
I don’t think the New York Review of Books should be covering the entirety of the Harlequin romance line, but I do think they should run reviews of the latest Dan Brown or J. K. Rowling books when they come out…
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Good frickin’ lord, what a horrible idea. Do you think their resources are infinite, that they have an unlimited budget, can make each issue phone-book thick? I loved the NYRB, read it cover-to-cover until my drastic “income shrinkage” forced me to let my expensive subscription lapse.
(And, per Ayo’s charge, they’d be LYING if they didn’t review those “culturally larger” — and hugely popular — Harlequin potboilers.)
For that matter, I greatly enjoy Dan Brown’s page-turners, and the Harry Potter books. However, critiques of these highly popular authors are hugely widespread. I’d far rather the NYRB — or TCJ — focus its limited resources on material that they consider more worthy of attention, that every other critic isn’t covering…
Fuck their “limited resources.” TCJ spent pages (in their print days) on that “Time Out of Joint” column, are you people REALLY CONFLATING “covering mainstream comics at all” with lengthy features like the 40 page interviews?
I have zero patience for this nonsense and it’s going into negative numbers. Spurgeon had it right when he started his “Cape Fear” column. That’s it, just a small acknowledgement that YES, COMICS EXIST OUTSIDE OF THE ARTCOMICS FRATHOUSE.
:flips over table:
Hey Steven – what did I say that makes you think I’m “discounting the surrounding culture that influences and helps set the standard that artists reach for.”
It’s just that I didn’t think I’d asserted anything about why any of this happened…
I haven’t commented on this thread mostly because I am not now and have never been a cover-to-cover reader of TCJ – I’ll read an article or an interview if it happens to tap into something I’m interested in, or if someone recommends it (and people do recommend stuff to me so I have read some) but I have no meaningful sense of the magazine’s trending overall. My sense, though, is that this problem of aesthetic narrowness doesn’t stem from the fact that Gary Groth is Gary Groth, with all of Gary’s particular critical perspectives and vantage points, but from the fact that there was only one Gary, only one person who even tried to do journalistic criticism (as opposed to trade publicity drivel) at all, so there’s this tendency to equate Gary’s way of doing criticism and Gary’s values for comics with “comics’” way of doing criticism and of thinking about art overall. But I think that’s more because Gary was the only person who stepped up to do it at all. The Journal’s aesthetic vantage point was well established by the time Gary stopped being the editor. If there had been a handful of Garies, with competing aesthetics but equivalent committments to critical discourse (whether journalistic or academic), as was the case in film, the situation could be significantly different. I have a hard time blaming TCJ for that, let alone Gary personally…
I think the art comics critical culture is really nichy, and I don’t like that nichiness — but it’s also an unarguably true statement that the whole media landscape is nichy. Dan Nadel linked to this review of 1-800-MICE where these “literary” (which I think here means small press fiction rather than literature) folks were lamenting the lack of cross-communication among fiction writers and comics writers. I imagine myopia and confirmation bias are things all arts interest groups suffer from at this particular historical moment. It’s something that merits a targeted resistance, because by definition it blinds you to its effects.
On Gaiman, Robert — I haven’t actually read anything more than a couple of short stories, a long time ago. It’s not really my thing aesthetically; it seemed like good SF, but not as ambitious as Delany, sort of trying to be smart popular fic. In a showdown between Neil Gaiman and Neal Stephenson I’ll definitely go with Gaiman. He gives a pretty good interview…
Caro, Thanks for stepping into this. Several of the arguments being made here haven’t been made clearly, and since you have been linked to the contention that the attitude espoused by TCJ has had a deleterious effect on craft resulting in work which is angry, harsh and ugly. Oddly enough those are really good words to describe mainstream super hero comics, and not at all what comes to my mind when thinking of something like 1-800-MICE.
Just to bring this into focus would you give examples of “indy/alternative” comics which are poorly crafted as well as examples from mainstream super hero comic books which show a higher level of craft then works by Gabrielle Bell, Lynda Barry, Chris Ware, Matt Thurber, Dan Clowes, Seth, John McNaught, Jim Woodring, Tony Millionaire, Jamie Hernandez and lots more besides those few names.
As far as I can see the level of craft in Alt/Indy comics dwarfs the ugly looking (hideous really) material in super hero comic books. Not having read any of that kind of material I can’t judge the writing, but if taken at face value as represented by the artwork (which does tell us something about the story content), I can’t imagine the writing is any better than the art.
Hey Holly — did you read the postscript to the original post? I think that’s still the answer I want to give to this.
I’m absolutely not making a critical evaluation — x work is ugly; x work is beautiful. I’m talking about the way in which aesthetics signify throughout the art form. Art/alt cartooning is pretty consistently influenced at least a little bit by punk and underground aesthetics, including many of the artists you name. But broaden your scope to the dozens of people trying to become well-known, the casual cartoonists, and suddenly it’s an exponentially more insistent influence. I don’t think that it’s inherently a bad influence, or one people should systematically eschew in favor of something else. I just think we should be more thoughtful about the ways those aesthetics make meaning, and I think we should encourage examination of whether other aesthetics besides underground cartooning can influence contemporary art comics aesthetics. There’s no reason why contemporary comics has to be the aesthetic offspring of any cartooning of the past — there’s no mandate for absolute historical aesthetic continuity. That continuity will happen, but it isn’t a requirement. Imagination requires the effort to seek new sources of inspiration and new aesthetic paradigms. The commitment to raw=authentic (or however you want to axiomize it) is a limitation that makes comics appear to be itself an aesthetic — outside of the comics subculture, a lot of pepole DO consider comics to be an aesthetic — rather than a medium that can explore and exploit the full range of aesthetic possibilities.
That said, people involved in this discussion have made some specific comments about craft, like Jason Overby’s comment about Dash Shaw, that are really interesting and worth pursuing. I’m sure there’s much more to be said about specific instances.
But for me the issue around craft is not whether any given cartoonist is a good craftsperson or not (I’m not even particularly interested in that kind of evaluation; I’ll leave it to others) but rather the consistent and culturally situated ways in which the punk and indie aesthetic tie into an “anti-craft” attitude. It’s almost definitional for punk. And part of my argument is that the anti-craft vantage point is also an anti-concept vantage point, because craft and concept need each other.
It doesn’t mean there’s no skill involved in creating that aesthetic — it’s an attitude about aesthetics and ethics. And like I said to Derik, I think it’s a different attitude from the one the avant-garde folks have, because its influence on them is more critically charged. The avant-garde conversation is more about the aesthetics of reduction that is inherent to cartooning, and whether it’s possible to pack that aesthetics with the kind of conceptual meaning that would allow comics to compete with literature in conceptual sophistication. I honestly think most of the cartoonists you name aren’t really relevant to that conversation…
Holly, I think the way you take the conversation is actually telling. Superhero comics are largely horrible; everybody knows that. But why should they then be the standard for comparison? Saying that alt comics are superior in craft to superhero comics is like saying someone is honest for a politician; it ends up insulting the thing you’re trying to compliment.
Alt comics have long, and still, set themselves up in contrast to mainstream work. Thus, in part, I think, the interest in punk, rough, non-slick, non-corporate aesthetics. It’s historically understandable why that happened, but it’s not necessary, and at some point becomes limiting (as you can see from manga, for example, where the work with artistic pretensions isn’t identifiable by an aesthetic of crudity or anti-slickness.)
I like a lot of things that have that aesthetic of crudity in one way or another; like Caro said, I’m a big fan of Ariel Schrag’s work, and I love Johnny Ryan. So it’s not, for me, that that sort of work is invalid; just that its omnipresence at the center of the conversation can get a little stifling.
Being a child raised in a lower socio-economic background and by Depression-era parents, my take on TCJ’s anti-superhero stance was from more of a practical tahn artistic point of view. The following letter was publishing in “Blood and Thunder” (remember that?) in TCJ #241, February 2002. Naturally, they gave me a smart-ass response — but I didn’t care (I’d post that as well, but I don’t have the issue handy to transcribe it. The letter itself was already in a handy text file).
“There I was, minding my own business reading the Wizard World article in The Comics Journal 238, when the Journal’s anti-superhero bias, this time elucidated by Michael Dean, jumped right out of the page and slapped me in the face! And since I’ve long since run out of cheeks to turn, I decided it was finally time to throw a good ol’ rant the Journal’s way.
Dean sums up his jaded view of the folks in the 2001 Artists Alley (of which I was unashamedly one) with the statement, “…one is struck especially at Wizard World by how consistently the tables are filled with young mainstream- and superhero-artist hopefuls. There is little sign of originality, experimentation or even an alternative community.” He then closes out his observations of the work of Artists Alley creators by saying, “With few exceptions it is the work of fans in training to become the sort of artists who are lauded every month in Wizard magazine.”
Cheap shot, Dean. OK, so you don’t like Wizard magazine or the Wizard World convention. That’s your prerogative. But in fact, the Journal has been sticking its nose up at the superhero genre long before Wizard or its spin-offs existed in the comic book world. So the fact that a lot of young creators are embracing the superhero genre at Wizard World has little to do with the convention or the magazine. In reality, superheroes have been in the forefront of fan creative efforts since the very beginning of comic book fandom, and apparently, this long-time fan propensity towards creating superheros is what really steams the Journal.
Personally, I’m getting tired of reading your narrow-minded propaganda about the matter, and I think you are doing a disservice to young creators by constantly belittling the superhero genre as a kind of bastard stepchild of the comic book world. Editor Gary Groth, of all people, should know better than that, since his early works embraced the superhero genre.
Being an older comic book creator who deeply loves the sequential art medium, my advice to young creators is probably far healthier for them in the long run than the one-sided, pie-in-the-sky editorial slant the Journal espouses. Your never-ending editorial tirade against the superhero genre may lead young artists into believing they can do what ever they want and still make a good living doing comics, but such advice is total bullshit.
In reality, there are only two types of work a creative-type person can do: Work that pays, and work that does not.
Most often, creative work that pays cannot be overly creative. Whether it’s writing, drawing, sculpting or basket weaving, work that pays well enough for the artist to live in relative comfort usually must be commercially marketable on a fairly large scale.
And since most creators are not very wealthy, their creative material is normally financed and marketed by someone else. Most often it is a publisher, a producer, an editor, a distributor or some other middleman who calls the shots. And more often than not, that middleman knows (or thinks he knows) what parameters the work should have to keep it commercially marketable.
So, unless you have the creative clout of a Pablo Picasso, your work will meet your middleman’s parameters. A creator may still have some degree of creativity, however, it will not be allowed to exceed the relatively fixed boundaries of the middleman’s perceived vision of commercial viability. If the creator on hand cannot deal with the middleman’s view of reality, the middleman will find another creator who is more understanding.
There are, of course, exceptions to the above. In rare situations, a creator can avoid the “constraints” of dealing with a middleman, generate work that pays, live comfortably and control the sale and distribution of his work. For example, in the fine art world, an artist can sometimes develop a relatively small following of very rich people who are willing to pay large sums of money for a relatively small amount of his work.
But even in this situation, with the “oppressive yoke” of the middleman gone, the artist’s work often isn’t very creative either. Why? Simple. Instead of pandering to the wants of the middleman, the artist (consciously or subconsciously) will now pander to the wants of his exclusive clientele. The result? The artist’s work will often end up as a mirror image, or close derivation, of some hot and ultimately marketable trend in the upper cliques of the art world.
So what about work that does not pay? Well, this is usually the most creative type of work a person can do, simply because there are no external parameters influencing the person’s creativity. It is creative work done in this type on environment that the Journal adores (particularly if it also features a healthy sprinkling of naked body parts).
At its core, the Journal’s stance is noble, although often overblown and a bit self-righteous. Unfortunately, the way the Journal presents its stance, in my opinion, can lull young creators into thinking they can be both creative and make a living. This is where the Journal’s bullshit factor probably causes the most harm.
Willie Sutton, a notorious bank robber in the 1930s, was once asked why he robbed banks. His reply was simple and logical: “Because that’s where the money is.” In the comic book business, the rationale of the wannabe superhero artists and writers the Journal sneers at isn’t much different than Sutton’s. Why do so many creators today lean towards the superhero genre? Because that’s where the money is.
Unfortunately, the Journal always takes its self-proclaimed artistic high road, berating the young creators who embrace the superhero genre as pitiful charlatans or brainless lemmings — slavish followers of the equally slavish generation of superhero creators who preceded them. This, sports fans, is la-la land at its finest.
In the real world, a creator will have to make a decent, long-term living sooner or later, particularly if that person wants to have a spouse and children. And regardless what the Journal says, creators who lean towards the superhero genre are not morons or sheep, they are just practical people who want to transform their love of comics into a viable, long-term career.
Naturally, if you are a comic book creator, you don’t have to create superhero comics if you don’t want to. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you can make a living drawing philosophical mood pieces about your early childhood.
My advice to the vast majority of young comic book creators is simple: Unless you want to end up dying broke and/or bitterly frustrated some day, first focus on a non-creative career that pays a decent wage (an electrician or over-the-road truck driver, for example, pays about $35-$40,000 a year to start).
Then, if you must be creative in the Journal sense of the word, create something on your own time that pleases you. Damn any critic but yourself, and don’t expect anyone to pay for or lavish praise over your creative work, no matter how great you think it is. If someone does either, count your blessings, but don’t quit your day job unless the trickle of kudos or cash becomes a bona fide torrent.
And if, for some bizarre reason, you insist on attempting to make a decent living as a career comic book creator, ignore Gary and his high-minded cronies, and remember the four Ds: Don’t expect creative freedom; Don’t expect to be paid what you think you’re worth; Do make your deadlines; and last, but not least, Do create the best damned superheroes you can!”
I think one can make distinctions with Ryan & Schrag. Both have storytelling chops and are quite well acquainted with non-comics art forms. I think that’s a difference in kind from the anti-craft comics artists who like to revel in the ugliness of their art just for the sake of it.
Caro- I was referring to the brief comment from last week’s post:
I do think some of it comes from the mild contempt for writing that so many people seem to think is necessary in order to appreciate art.
Caro/Noah, Sure that all makes sense.
Isn’t it a good thing that aside from the finely crafted indy/alt comics there are a very large number of people with different levels of craft who are creating comics of their own. And isn’t the lack of craft in their work probably because some of them just aren’t very polished yet?
Do mainstream comics still have a similar sub-culture. They did back in the 60′s-70′s there were many fanzines which featured crude super hero stories by people who might or might not go on to become pro artists and writers. Does that even exist anymore, or are mainstream comics not inspiring large numbers of people to create comics of their own, the way indy/alt comics are?
I think there’s still a disconnect between how you’re defining “crude” and how Caro is trying to talk about “crude”, Holly.
The issue isn’t the level of aesthetic control or craft. The issue is that there’s a premium on “honest” expression (which includes confessional work and/or scatological work) and on punk-influenced naive art styles and narratives.
Maybe thinking about it in terms of music might help a little? Nirvana was a lot more technically accomplished than Kiss, but the first is punk and the second isn’t largely because of image/aesthetic interests/goals, etc.
The thing with comics in the U.S. is that there’s a very narrow vein of pop crap (i.e., top 40 — except infinitely worse than music top 40) and then there’s a lot of punk rock, much of which is interesting and adventurous, but all of which is still pretty much punk rock. There’s not metal, there’s not electronica, there’s not cock rock, there’s not funk, there’s not country, there’s not soul — there’s just punk rock. Which is a little limiting, even if you love punk rock. (And yes, all of the artists you listed could pretty much be seen as punk rock — even Chris Ware, who is an artist whose strengths have nothing to do with punk rock. The fact that he is nevertheless tied to that aesthetic in many ways is a sign of how strong that aesthetic is in alternative comics, I think.)
This is why Caro keeps saying that comics looks more like a genre, or a couple of genres, than like a medium.
In some ways the craft issue is throwing you off? It’s not that alt comics are less well-crafted than mainstream work. It’s that the standard in mainstream work is for slick (which they often fail to achieve because they suck) while the standard for alt work tends more towards grit and naif and unfiltered expression (which can have very high elements of craft, as in Crumb.) It’s about a stance towards craft rather than about craft per se.
This may be completely out of topic (sorry if it is), but one of the things that I can’t understand is why do people still insist in doing things in a completely obsolete way: pencilling and inking. In many of her stories Anke Feuchtenberger does pencils only and there’s no problem at all in reproducing her art (technology did evolve, you know?). From collage to painted comics there’s an infinite range of drawing techniques that are ignored by comics artists just because our grandfathers drew with pencils and India ink (heck, Alberto Breccia did it all before and he died in 1993 aged 74!). Caricature also seems hard to die… I could go on, I suppose…
By the way: Alberto Breccia
Domingos: A lot of people have been moving away from that traditional way of doing comics. In fact all the people Caro mentioned in a comment on the original post tend to work in non-pencil-over-ink media. Austin English uses a lot of mixed media with pencil, paint, crayon (or something crayon-like), college, etc. Warren Craghead works a lot in pencil, digitally, and with photos. Blaise Larmee works in pencil, photo, digital collage, silkscreen, etc. And Jason Overby’s webcomic 2101 is an unholy mess of media that is amazing ( http://twentyonezeroone.com/ ).
Which isn’t to say that is anywhere near the majority. But I do see a lot more people moving away from the pencil/ink combo. (I’ve been working a lot with photos lately.)
Some people just prefer to work that way. I know that for me nothing thrills me more visually than a crisp black line. (some discussion of this and the other pleasing effects of ink in my interview with Mahendra Singh here– http://www.tcj.com/carroll-cross-contour-and-the-demi-fecund-ram-an-interview-with-mahendra-singh/)
Noah, Let’s go up top, and see what Caro said,
“A lot of indie/alt cartooning has turned punk and underground ways of seeing the world into a fetish for harsh, angry expression and just plain ugliness, as though ugliness itself is sufficient to make a work edgy…”
Now what I’m saying is in my view the current comic books offered by DC and Marvel could easily be described as,
“a fetish for harsh, angry expression and just plain ugliness, as though ugliness itself is sufficient to make a work edgy…”
Honestly to me that is a superb description of what I gather is the mainstream market product. Is that fair?
Now was far as the level of craft. It may not have been Caro’s intent but when she said,
“ugliness in indie comics is often a shortcut, a way of giving the illusion that something significant is going on when it really isn’t.”
That could easily be read as, “Sid Vicious couldn’t play bass, but he made up for it with attitude.”
The thought there could be many indy/alt cartoonists can’t write or draw well, and are getting by on a pretense of being “fine artists” like Pollock, but they are skipping Pollock’s education, the way he was traditionally grounded and grew beyond that in steps.
There may be some of that in indy/alt comics (names?), but I imagine most stuff which is punk is that way for the same reason old super hero fanzine art is punk. The artists just aren’t very good. Those pretenders aren’t representative of indy/alt comics which almost uniformly display a high level of skill. And I think there is without any doubt at all, more beauty in indy/alt comics than there is in the things published by DC and Marvel.
See, again you’re kind of missing the point. The thing about Sid Vicious wasn’t that he couldn’t play bass, it was that it was *really important to him that it not seem like he was able to play bass.* There’s an aesthetic of a certain kind of ugliness/naivete. That kind of ugliness/naivete *is really different than the ugliness you get in mainstream comics*, which mostly has to do with incompetent slickness (computer coloring is kind of the metonymy for everything else.)
Crumb can really draw…but what he wants to draw is honest ugliness. Jeff Brown can’t necessarily draw…but he too is purveying honest ugliness. It’s not a question of which is competent and which isn’t. It’s a question of what the aesthetic is. And the punk aesthetic of honest naif ugliness is really predominant in alt comics, and pointing out that many of its practitioners are not naif, and that their work is beautiful, doesn’t really change that fact, or even address it.
The predominance of a punk aesthetic seems a little over sold to me. Jaime Hernandez is a TCJ fave and he draws as pretty as anyone out there. You could make the argument that Woodring is operating from a space of pure expression, but I wouldn’t call it beat and it certainly isn’t punk. It’s really pretty. Then there’s Clowes and Ware who are craft conscious and seem to wallow in trying hard. Ditto Brunetti. None of the aforementioned are playing the naif. If I were looking to target a publication for its emphasis on concept over craft (which I’m reading as pinned to the notion of narrative/conceptual depth combined with the compositional wherewithal to execute it)I’d go after “Blab,” or “Raw,” though I think both published more than enough good stuff to excuse their traffic in “heavy concept.”
But back to TCJ and the dust up between Holly and RSM. I think Holly might be picking up on an entailment implied in RSM’s argument, namely that the superhero comics they didn’t promote might have counter-balanced the aesthetic they did promote.
Punk isn’t a perfect fit, but I don’t think it’s bad shorthand. For one thing, there’s no shortage of pretty punk music. The Ramones did girl group covers, as somebody noted upthread.
Brunetti is definitively in the underground tradition of personal expression validated by its ugliness (ugliness here meaning scatological content, etc.) Jaime is openly committed to actual punk as an aesthetic, which comes through in the subcultures he writes about and in his fairly straightforward commitment to authenticity. Chris Ware is weird — like I said, his strengths as a creator have little if anything to do with punk or, I’d argue personal expression — but, nonetheless, there is in his work a real sense that ugliness (interpersonal misery, repetitive blankness) validates the artistic endeavor. Clowes’ drawings are, to my eyes, really, irritatingly ugly, which again I think is meant to be validating. I’m not super familiar with Woodring’s work, but it’s not that divorced from the underground surreal glop as id, is it? It’s ugliness done pretty; which is pretty, but doesn’t change the paradigm.
Something that is different, I think (though not all that great), is Asterios Polyp. It’s not confessional, it’s not committed to revealing honest ugly truths, it’s not indebted to the underground in any particular way, and I don’t think there’s any sense in which it validates itself thorugh ugliness. Maybe not so coincidentally, Mazzucchelli comes out of a mainstream background.
Which isn’t meant to say that the mainstream will save us. The mainstream is really bad; worse now than ever, probably. But it does have a slightly different perspective, fwiw.
Nate–
With the exception of Brunetti, none of the artists you mention have their roots in the environment we’re describing. They all precede it. Beyond that, they all trained to be artists in a context that respected craftsmanship and even saw slickness as a virtue. Thirty years ago, Jaime Hernandez was a fan artist who specialized in superhero illustrations. If Fantagraphics hadn’t offered to publish Love and Rockets, I have little doubt he would have ended up working for Marvel and DC in pretty short order. In fact, he did do some single-image illustration work for DC in the ’80s. Clowes’ goal coming out of Pratt was to be slick-magazine illustrator. In the days before Eightball, he did comics for Cracked magazine. Woodring came out of Hollywood animation. He also worked for DC as a colorist. Chris Ware’s first published effort was a sf-fantasy graphic novel published by Eclipse, who was probably the most notable of the Marvel-DC wannabe publishers of the ’80s. These guys were not shaped by the environment we’re complaining about.
Now, Ivan Brunetti’s early work was definitely shaped by this environment. It certainly reflected the values I find problematic. I’m not that up on his more recent work, but he does appear to have grown past this stunted aesthetic. But he’s definitely an exception. Most of these artists just go around in circles.
With that list of ’90s mainstream comics that TCJ didn’t review but should have, it was not my intention to portray it as a counterbalance to the indy work they were giving features coverage. It’s just a list of very high-profile material that a publication with generalist pretensions should have covered as a matter of course. Please do not infer any aesthetic judgment on my part with regard to any of them.
Okay, now I’m confused. If you don’t think any of those folks qualify, Robert, why do you think there’s a problem? That’s a roll call of some of the biggest names in alt comics, pretty much. If Jamie, Chris Ware, and Dan Clowes aren’t part of the clique you’re talking about, it seems like there shouldn’t actually be that much to worry about?
I’m sorry for the confusion. They are and they aren’t. They are all to one degree or another a synthesis of commercial-art values and the Surrealist/Beat/punk values of indy comics. I actually agree with everything you wrote in the comment above mine.
Ah, okay. Phew! For a second there I thought I didn’t know what I was talking about!
I also don’t think the visual craft of these guys has ever been much of an influence on the great mass of indy cartoonists. The story values, yes, but not the visual approach. I can’t think of anyone who looks like Hernandez or Woodring off the top of my head.
Let me add that with Clowes I have seen a lot of mimics out there, but they don’t have his draftsmanship skills or fluency with tools. They didn’t look like they were interested in developing those abilities, either. The only two Ware clones I’ve seen are Ethan Persoff and John Pham, and I’m pretty sure both are graphic designers in their day jobs.
“I can’t think of anyone who looks like Hernandez”
There are a lot of Jaime Hernandez wannabes.
They just all fail miserably.
And that’s normal and expected, no shame there.
“There’s an aesthetic of a certain kind of ugliness/naivete.” Instead of “ugliness/naivete” I think there is a exaggerated glorification of “authenticity”.
It just that what is “authentic” changes with each group/person.
But very polished stuff is not seem as “authentic” by most people.
Alcohol and sex? Authentic (even if it is a beer ad).
Cyber-bedouins in a desert planet? Not so much.
But should people dismiss such stuff automatically? I don’t think so.
I mean it is okay to put some value on authenticity, but people glorify it way too much, IMHO.
Robert–not to be sarcastic but I think you might need to reevaluate that. All of the mentioned artists are wildly influential, and yes, visually.
Ware, Clowes and Jaime Hernandez give us:
Jason Shiga, Adrian Tomine, Liz Suburbia, everybody who ever went to CCS, Kazu Kibuishi, Terry Moore, Spike, Ross Campbell, Sarah Oleksyk, Ivan Brunetti, Rich Tomasso, Robyn Chapman, that new dude Roman-something, Farel Daleymple, Dash Shaw, Thomas Herpich, Jason Lutes, and countless minicomic jigsaw things from earnest people who I can’t even begin to remember the names of.
I mean, really.
Darryl–
The indy people we’re referring to in this discussion are the vast bulk who seem to have embraced the aesthetics of Weirdo magazine. It’s not everybody who has some connection to alternative comics.
As for the people you mention, I’ll grant Shiga, Suburbia, and Tomasso.
A lot of the others have incorporated commercial-art aesthetics into their work. Kibuishi, Campbell, Dalrymple, Herpich, and Shaw have pulp-comic affinities to boot.
Adrian and Brunetti embraced this problematic indy aesthetic for a time. They then grew past it. Lutes has always stood apart from it. In Brunetti’s case, I gather it was Ware’s influence that helped him move away. He’s become very slick.
I think Terry Moore would dispute that he was influenced by any of the three you mention. The only one I could see being an influence was Hernandez. He has said he has read little of Jaime’s work. In fact, after the similarities were pointed out to him, he has said he has gone out of his way to avoid looking at it. In any case, he bought into commercial-art aesthetics from the get-go. He certainly has never been into ugliness for ugliness’ sake.
I had never heard of Sarah Oleksyk before. I was intrigued by what I saw on Google Image. Very promising.
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R. Maheras says:
…Most often, creative work that pays cannot be overly creative. Whether it’s writing, drawing, sculpting or basket weaving, work that pays well enough for the artist to live in relative comfort usually must be commercially marketable on a fairly large scale.
And since most creators are not very wealthy, their creative material is normally financed and marketed by someone else. Most often it is a publisher, a producer, an editor, a distributor or some other middleman who calls the shots. And more often than not, that middleman knows (or thinks he knows) what parameters the work should have to keep it commercially marketable.
…At its core, the Journal’s stance is noble, although often overblown and a bit self-righteous. Unfortunately, the way the Journal presents its stance, in my opinion, can lull young creators into thinking they can be both creative and make a living. This is where the Journal’s bullshit factor probably causes the most harm.
Willie Sutton, a notorious bank robber in the 1930s, was once asked why he robbed banks. His reply was simple and logical: “Because that’s where the money is.” In the comic book business, the rationale of the wannabe superhero artists and writers the Journal sneers at isn’t much different than Sutton’s. Why do so many creators today lean towards the superhero genre? Because that’s where the money is…
In the real world, a creator will have to make a decent, long-term living sooner or later, particularly if that person wants to have a spouse and children. And regardless what the Journal says, creators who lean towards the superhero genre are not morons or sheep, they are just practical people who want to transform their love of comics into a viable, long-term career.
Naturally, if you are a comic book creator, you don’t have to create superhero comics if you don’t want to. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you can make a living drawing philosophical mood pieces about your early childhood…
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Dunno how much TCJ’s championing of art comics, damning of commercial fare was intended as practical advice for would-be young creators, but it certainly could be taken that way by naive idealists, and lead to much frustration and heartbreak.
Condemning anyone working at Marvel and DC as “hacks” leaves out practical considerations; the possibility that folks like Gil Kane, to name a notable example, may be aware they’re laboring at artistically shallow froth, but seeing it as a better way to make a living than putting together widgets in an assembly line, getting to draw — and develop their skills — while getting paid for it, maybe with dreams of or doing a “personal project” on the side…
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
Nate–
With the exception of Brunetti, none of the artists you mention have their roots in the environment we’re describing. They all precede it. Beyond that, they all trained to be artists in a context that respected craftsmanship and even saw slickness as a virtue. Thirty years ago, Jaime Hernandez was a fan artist who specialized in superhero illustrations. If Fantagraphics hadn’t offered to publish Love and Rockets, I have little doubt he would have ended up working for Marvel and DC in pretty short order. In fact, he did do some single-image illustration work for DC in the ’80s. Clowes’ goal coming out of Pratt was to be slick-magazine illustrator. In the days before Eightball, he did comics for Cracked magazine. Woodring came out of Hollywood animation. He also worked for DC as a colorist…
——————————-
And Crumb was a top artist for American Greeting cards; Mazzucchelli “…received his BFA from the Rhode Island School of Design and started working in comics in the early 1980s, first at Marvel Comics where, after a few fill-in jobs, he became the regular artist on Daredevil…” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mazzucchelli )
Alan Moore developed exceptional writerly skills while crafting short stories for 2000AD; similarly achieving mastery which he could then deploy on more aesthetically-ambitious fare…
——————————
…Chris Ware’s first published effort was a sf-fantasy graphic novel published by Eclipse…
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(???!!!) Gad, I’d love to see that! (Ware’s probably bought up all the old issues and had them burnt…)
Noah-
If I get what you’re saying punk is defined by a pretense to authenticity, but I guess I’m still at a loss for what does and does not qualify as a pretense to authenticity. I realize there’s an issue of implied authorship here, but I’m not sure what the yardstick for evaluation is. I’m cool with gut instinct, but I’m not sure a commitment libidinal honest expression = punk… At most I’d say its a necessary but not sufficient ingredient.
RSM-
I think you’re waffling a little. If the case is that TCJ promoted an aesthetic that arose prior to it (Crumb, Woodring, etc.) then wouldn’t we be looking at a bunch of people that pair craft with self-expression? I don’t know that we are. I think you might be onto something that “Weirdo,” which was always promoted itself as the low-brow alternative to “Raw” might be more responsible for the aesthetic that bothers you. But that’s putting distance between that aesthetic and TCJ.
Man, you’ll grant me every cartoonist I mentioned and a grip more! The sources Ware, Clowes and J Hernandez are wildly influential. Lots don’t have the chops to follow them, but that doesn’t mean that legions of cartoonists (well known and obscure) dont count them as parental influence
” but I’m not sure a commitment libidinal honest expression = punk”
Probably a commitment to libidinal honest expression and the guarantor of the honesty of the expression is the expression’s ugliness. The ugliness can be defined in various ways (scatology, boredom, whatever).
Again, it’s not that work done in this vein is bad, or even worse than other options. It’s just really prevalent among the most lauded comics, it seems to me, and creates some of the problems Caro talks about.
Darryl–
Their influence has overwhelmingly been with story values, much less so with visual technique. And if you don’t have the chops to follow them as visual stylists, and aren’t especially interested in developing those chops, then you can’t really be said to be particularly influenced by them visually.
Nate–
Generalizations are porous. There are always exceptions and qualifications to be made. My position about the aesthetic TCJ promoted is well stated by the first long paragraph that Noah brought over from the other thread. I’ll quote it again here:
Keep in mind the context of the original discussion. When you get to “are seen as values” and so on, I’m talking about the indy-comics community. Looking at this again, I should have made it clearer, and I would have fussed over these statements more if I had written them in an essay rather than a comment. I didn’t expect this to get turned into a post.
As far as the magazine goes, it has generally treated visual elegance as a bonus instead of particularly germane to a work’s evaluation. And a lot of cartoonists have come to treat that elegance as not only beside the point, but contrary to it.
In fairness to Gary, he personally values accomplished artwork quite a bit. He frequently tells tyro cartoonists to focus on developing their drawing and rendering chops. But the writing in TCJ over the last two decades or so more often than not treats them as a secondary matter.
Robert you’re wrong and that’s that. You make lacking in training or ability seem like a choice???? Take it from a practitioner it’s not a choice. People can be influenced by something visually without (a) trying to replicate it, (b) trying and suceeding to replicate it, (c) wearing it on their sleeve or (d) having it as their sole influence or inspiration.
Trust me, this isn’t opinion anymore, this is fact–you’re misconstruing how artists develop and wildly misunderstanding the way influence propagates.
Clarification: There are choices involved, I’m not meaning to portray artists as victims of circumstance, but I an vehemently denouncing the bizarre suggestion that artists not aping one another denotes a simple lack of direct influence where–I mean if you cannot see the influence for yourself, simply talk to the artists, they’re all very much alive.
RSM: I don’t want to muddy the waters too much, but you keep writing about “ugly” art as if there were a universal definition of “ugly.” There is not, of course. When I think about the sources of the styles of the artists who drew in Weirdo and RAW (and I think it is these artists that you are characterizing as influential ‘punk’ ugly artists–but I may be wrong), I think of artists who were influenced by visually by MAD, by outsider and folk art (Darger of course, but also people like Bill Traylor, etc.), “Bad” painting (influential 1978 New Museum exhibit), the Hairy Who (especially in the case of Panter), and many other sources, in comics and without. I mention these influences because they challenged certain conventional views–but were, in my mind, not only not “ugly” but beautiful. I don’t expect you to agree, but I do expect you to acknowledge that “ugly” is in the eye of the beholder, and if you are going to rope together a disparate group of artists, you will have to do better than to characterize their work as “ugly.”
Darryl–
I do have some first-hand knowledge of artistic practice. We’re friends on Facebook. If you go into my Photos page, you’ll find two albums of my cartooning and other artwork, most of it from the ’90s.
I think it was Caro who brought up “ugly”? And I don’t think she’s nuts; ugly is often seen as beautiful, but part of the reason for that is a deliberate reversal of values. The beauty comes in part from the deliberate embrace of ugliness.
And can I just say how much I hate the hairy who? Bless Gary Panter (and even more Keith Herzik) for doing something interesting with it, but man that stuff is wretched.
I love it and have loved it for 30 years, since I first saw a slide of Jim Nutt’s work in an art history class. De gustibus non disputandum est (but I’m right).
Ayo said, “Lots don’t have the chops to follow them.”
That’s what I see. Not a punk pretense, but rather people who are either young, or haven’t developed their craft for some oreason. As I mentioned there used to be a whole bunch of super hero and fantasy fan art in the 60′s and 70′s which showed the same lack of chops.
I tiny percentage of “lousy” alternative cartoonists publishing mini-comics they sell at shows might strut around with the attitude, “My stuff looks like this because I want it to,” but I don’t think many people take them seriously.
There is also the consideration that being unschooled does not mean undeveloped. If you look at something like the paintings of Helen Bradley (an English Grandmother) or Howard Finster (a Preacher), their work could be called “honest naif ugliness” but it certainly is not punk.
Outsider art as it is packaged and appreciated (not necessarily as it is created) is congruent with the underground aesthetic (which is congruent with punk in some ways.) Fletcher Hanks’ success in the art comics world wasn’t an accident.
Noah’s right. The word “ugly” is more Caro’s vocabulary than mine. I’ve repeated it, but I’m following her lead. My own preference most of the time is for “harsh” or “unvanished,” particularly when talking about the surface aspects of art.
I tend to reserve “ugly” for things I find exceptionally repellent in terms of the underlying thinking. The single ugliest comics page I’ve seen in recent memory is page 614 of Habibi. It’s really foul, but I wouldn’t call it unvarnished or harsh.
On one side you have The Impressionists, The Fauves (Wild Beasts), Primitive Art, Surrealism, and on the other side you have “The French Academy.”
Well, Robert I’m at a loss then! I see here a clear missing of the fact that influence is filtered and diffuse. It’s not usually slavish copying, but still ever present.
And then of course, I will implore you to stroll through the most convenient alt-comics convention floor and browse the wares of the lesser known cartoonists and even chat them up a bit about their influences and inspirations.
I’m really taken aback at the suggestion that these three titans of alt comics can be listed as not very visually influential, only thematically influential.
Noah wrote
“Probably a commitment to libidinal honest expression and the guarantor of the honesty of the expression is the expression’s ugliness. The ugliness can be defined in various ways (scatology, boredom, whatever).”
Here’s the rub… If ugliness lacks definitional clarity because of its subjective dimensions(which it seems everyone here agrees is the case) then it has little value for delimiting a of practice. Aesthetic questions are in large measure questions of categories. That’s why the category itself is so often the focus of concern in arguments about aesthetic worth, whether we’re talking Bourdieu vs. Kant or Kochalka vs. Woodring.
RSM-
Thanks for the clarification, and I think beat/surrealist is actually pretty specific compared to punk. What I take issue with is the level of blame heaped on TCJ, as opposed to say the comics TCJ applauded. I agree that TCJ probably had an influence, but so did Weirdo, Zwigoff’s Crumb documentary, and Maus. None of those needed TCJ to find their audience.
“If ugliness lacks definitional clarity because of its subjective dimensions(which it seems everyone here agrees is the case) ”
No; ugliness is culturally determined. Shitting is ugly; boredom is ugly; messiness is ugly. That doesn’t mean that everyone’s going to perceive them as ugly, but it does mean that people recognize that they are culturally defined as ugly. Which becomes a feature rather than a bug. But it’s still a feature.
I agree that “shitting, messiness, etc.” are culturally defined as ugly, then there’s a host of punk bands that no longer sit in category, and bunch of comics that don’t necessarily make the grade. Just how much shitting does a comic need in it to be ugly. You say it needs to be a feature, but does it need to be a defining feature (Johnny Ryan), or can it be a flourish (Gilbert Hernandez)? Also, if we include boredom in the definition of ugly it’s hard for me to think of much in the way in late 20th century alt-cartooning that isn’t ugly because of deliberate messiness, or doesn’t in part focus on the world’s ugliness (Jaime Hernandez).
That first sentence is a mess. What I should have written was:
“Were I to agree that ‘shitting, messiness, etc.’ are culturally defined as ugly, then I would also have to argue that there’s a host of punk bands that no longer fit the definition, ditto alt comics.”
Sorry, but I’m posting fast between meetings. Hence the terse tone. I’m really trying to figure out where we’re coming from here.
“Also, if we include boredom in the definition of ugly it’s hard for me to think of much in the way in late 20th century alt-cartooning that isn’t ugly because of deliberate messiness, or doesn’t in part focus on the world’s ugliness (Jaime Hernandez).”
That’s my point!
You don’t sound terse or impolite; no worries!
I picked up “ugly” from Nathan, I think — although he used it in the highly subjective sense of “dreadful to look at,” and I tried to qualify that in the postscript I quoted above. (Or maybe I just paraphrased “dreadful to look at” as ugly…)
But that said, I think Nate’s comment above maybe points to the source of the confusion, at least with regards to my comments and use of the term. “Ugly” absolutely is not a category; it is a sign. You can have some image that signifies “ugliness” surrounded by other images that don’t; you can queer the signifier so that it’s things generally culturally considered to be “ugly” but treated in context as beautiful (which is common in alt comics); you can saturate the artwork with the signifier; etc.
I mentioned Burroughs’s Soft Machine in the other thread and I think that’s an instance where he saturates the work with signifiers for ugliness, including but not limited to scatology. It’s a very angry work that is thematically concerned with social ostracization and violence, and physiological ugliness is used in a relatively simplistic symbolically way to construct a portrait of social ugliness. Compare it, though, to later, post-Beat work, like Ghost of Chance: there is still very harsh, barbed imagery throughout, and “the ugliness of being human” still functions as a major theme, but there’s a greater semiotic mixture, more use of imagery that does not signify ugliness in any way, more use of thematic and semiotic contrast, less of a tendency for the ugliness to take the dominant aesthetic role — even though it does retain its dominant thematic one. That increased contrast between theme and aesthetics works to “hold” greater conceptual complexity than the earlier, experimental work.
That’s why to me, it isn’t about some artist’s work being “ugly.” That’s largely a subjective evaluation. It’s what the artist does with the signification of “ugliness” and how sophisticated his or her ability to manipulate that signification is. And I think oftentimes people feel like just dropping in the ugly thing is enough — that’s what I mean by a shortcut. As if ugliness signifies more powerfully than other signs, which I don’t think it does.
“And I think oftentimes people feel like just dropping in the ugly thing is enough — that’s what I mean by a shortcut. As if ugliness signifies more powerfully than other signs, which I don’t think it does.”
That makes sense to me, as does the shift from category to sign.
Noah-
Are you saying that ugly is a category, or that alt comics are by and large riddled with signifiers of ugliness… to a point where that’s becoming an impediment to progress? Also, it seems like most independent film, most literary fiction, and most of what gets shown on TV would be similarly guilty. Is that right?
I should have talked about it as a sign in my initial post – it might have saved all this LOL. (But this is all good…)
I know you asked Noah but I agree with your summation in that last there — riddled with signifiers of ugliness to the point it’s an impediment to progress. And yes, lots and lots of other arts are afflicted with this same malady. But I do think it’s maybe a little easier to find other things in other arts? Maybe? Just because comics is small…
Frank Santoro once described a generational divide between cartoonists in terms of the pre- vs. post-Elmo set. I might be butchering his observation, but as I recall it the pre-Elmo set have an aversion to “cute and earnest,” while the post-Elmo set embrace both. The constant is the premium on self expression and/or self-disclosure (it’s just more refracted for the pre-Elmo crowd). So maybe it all started with “Sesame Street.”
Yeah; it’s very present in other arts as well in various ways, but I think it’s especially prevalent in comics, as Caro says.
Again, thinking about music — authenticity is certainly omnipresent, and ugliness as validation is as well, in everything from punk to hip hop to metal. But there’s also mainstream r&b and jazz and electronica and dance music and twee folk and mash-ups, not to mention classical music, where the signifiers work really differently. And in music, too, authenticity can be tied to actual subcultures in a way that inflects things differently, whereas alt comics has to rely on an ersatz subculture which is defined by its commitment to authentic ugliness rather than to any other subcultural markers (a shared history, a shared community, or what have you).
It’s possible that this is a way where the demographic narrowness of comics inflects the narrowness of the content? Probably need to think about that a little more….
I’m not sure you really need to think about it all that much more, Noah. ;) (i.e., seems pretty obvious to me…)
Nate, I’m kindly disposed toward cute and earnest, but Elmo’s almost enough to make me change my mind… ;)
“What a strange vanity painting is; it attracts admiration by resembling the original, we do not admire.”
Pascal, Blaise
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
…I would have fussed over these statements more if I had written them in an essay rather than a comment. I didn’t expect this to get turned into a post.
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Yeah, I could understand your mixed feelings when that happened; not only would an essay get more finessing from the writer, but a post is more made to exist within the context of interaction with other commenters…
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Ayo says:
Robert you’re wrong and that’s that. You make lacking in training or ability seem like a choice???? Take it from a practitioner it’s not a choice…
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Ability (AKA “talent”) is an innate capacity; however, as with training (AKA “practice”) we have the choice of whether or not to work at developing, improving, n’est-ce pas?
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Robert Boyd says:
…I don’t expect you to agree, but I do expect you to acknowledge that “ugly” is in the eye of the beholder, and if you are going to rope together a disparate group of artists, you will have to do better than to characterize their work as “ugly.”
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It is a painfully imprecise term. This earlier remark…
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holly cita says:
…the contention [has been made] that the attitude espoused by TCJ has had a deleterious effect on craft resulting in work which is angry, harsh and ugly. Oddly enough those are really good words to describe mainstream super hero comics…
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…reminds how fanboys who’d toss their cookies over the “ugliness” of a Jeffrey Brown comic would cum in their pants over this Liefeld “masterpiece”: http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4474/liefeldbill18sd9.jpg
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As far as I can see the level of craft in Alt/Indy comics dwarfs the ugly looking (hideous really) material in super hero comic books.
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We’re surely thinking of “craft” in different ways. The most widely-used definition denotes “skill; dexterity: The silversmith worked with great craft.” [Dictionary.com]
In other words, it refers to the technical ability to create a work with a finished surface, looking polished rather than crude. The equivalent of a piece of furniture where the joins are hard to see, parts fit together solidly, drawers slide smoothly.
However, all this technical ability can be put at work to realize a design — piece of furniture, comics page — which is, through poor taste, a lousy imagination, aesthetically hideous:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_2LrGV1sno/SCnAcB3N86I/AAAAAAAABzk/uyH_rnLqv2o/s400/Picture%2B8.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E1yDr0XCGus/SBq1s_C_UJI/AAAAAAAAAMA/IyYVLERe65I/s200/ulgytable.jpg
http://www.sippicancottagefurniture.com/ugly45.jpg
This came up in the Google “ugly furniture” search, but I think it looks pretty kewl: http://jezzbean.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/butt-ugly-coffee-table1.jpg .
(More: http://jezzbean.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/pretty-ugly-furniture/ )
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Nate says:
Here’s the rub… If ugliness lacks definitional clarity because of its subjective dimensions(which it seems everyone here agrees is the case) then it has little value for delimiting a of practice. Aesthetic questions are in large measure questions of categories…
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Well, why not have categories of ugliness?
- Finely-rendered, but featuring a highly unappealing subject.
Rembrandt satirically depicts “The Rape of Ganymede,” a youth so beautiful the gods sent an eagle to kidnap him to be their cup-bearer: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Rembrandt_-_Rape_of_Ganymede_-_WGA19243.jpg
Giger’s “The Great Beast” http://eracyberpunk.altervista.org/files/image/hr_giger_pII_the_great_beast_p13.preview.jpg …
…and “Landscape”: http://www.meridian.net.au/Art/Artists/HRGiger/Gallery/Images/giger-landscape-xiv-medium.jpg
- Treating a subject which would ordinarily be beautiful in a harsh, distorted fashion.
I had a huge print of Munch’s “Madonna” hanging in my first apartment: http://www.cityside.org.nz/userfiles/image/advent2007/munch-madonna.jpg . Ugly to some, beautiful to others.
From Pearlstein: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eMVZP8jeMJc/TvTyxGBVCkI/AAAAAAAABnk/4VnfiWpM_f8/s1600/Pearlstein+two+female+nudes+with+red+drape.jpg
- An ugly subject, but still made in a way “beautiful” via masterly lighting, psychological depth, etc.
Who but Rembrandt could bring out the divinity within a subject as ugly as a torn-open ox carcass? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Rembrandt_Harmensz._van_Rijn_037.jpg
From Irving Penn: http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ksc2mclMGP1qaos4ho1_400.jpg .
“Death,” by Alex Grey: http://bizarrocentral.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/alex2.jpeg
Abe Vigoda, by Drew Friedman: http://images.tcj.com/2011/10/Abe-Vigoda002forCJ.jpg
From Domenico Ghirlandaio, “An Old Man and his Grandson”: http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintings/artists/special/art/new/big/Domenico-Ghirlandaio-XX-An-Old-Man-and-His-Grandson-1490-XX-Musee-du-Louvre-Paris.jpg
- Technically accomplished, yet butt-ugly because of poor taste, an atrocious design-sense.
The earlier-linked-to ugly furniture
http://www.leadstampede.com/choppers/airbrushart/Custom-Joker-Mural.jpg
The oeuvre of Rob Liefeld.
- Aesthetically unappealing, yet exquisitely symmetrical, beautifully designed.
http://windycitizensports.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/lamprey.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3FTO6EjRbe4/SwZK87iAy3I/AAAAAAAAXFI/rqQuvQGIrMM/s640/Z340499-Drosophila_fly_head_SEM-SPL.jpg . (Might not an alien find these critters far more beautiful than even the loveliest examples of Homo Sap?)