The talk of many in the comics community this past week has been Eddie Campbell’s essay “The Literaries,” which was posted at tcj.com on February 6. The main target was Ng Suat Tong and his essay criticizing the EC Comics line, but most have taken it–and I think correctly–as an attack on the perceived values of The Hooded Utilitarian and its contributors. (Calling us “The Literaries” is a step up for Eddie; he used to refer to us as “jackals.”) His arguments are nothing new. He combines an angry defense of comics-cultist insularity with a broadside against those who look at comics through the prism of a broader interest in the arts. It’s the sort of thing that used to be directed at The Comics Journal by superhero fans during the magazine’s first two decades. I suppose it’s only poetic justice that the publication is happily promoting such a screed now. Things have come full circle, and TCJ has undoubtedly become what it once beheld, although I don’t think even the most obtuse superhero fan stooped to claim that good stories were irrelevant to good comics. Arguing with comics-cultist solipsism is something I’ve done a lot of, and I know from experience that it’s a quixotic undertaking. However, Eddie’s essay does offer the opportunity to clarify a few things. Given some of the commentary it has sparked, I’d say taking that opportunity is the best move.
Eddie’s opening paragraph is a masterpiece of misconceptions. I’m actually impressed at how many comics-cultist fallacies he managed to pack into just over a hundred words:
In the wake of the comics medium’s forty-year hike to serious acceptance, the chances are that now a person won’t get laughed out the room for putting them on a par with Literature. The flipside of the medium having gained this kind of recognition is that it has also acquired a new species of critic who demands that comics be held to the standards of LITERATURE. Since the invasion of these literaries, I have been observing a tendency to ask the question: if this weren’t a comic would it stand up? Would the story be any good if it were prose and in competition with the rest of the world’s prose? If we take away all these damn pictures, would the stuff that is left be worth a hoot?
Eddie appears in the grip of the same delusion that afflicts a number of comics cultists. They assume because a handful of contemporary comics efforts have received the respect of the larger culture, that means the comics medium as a whole is now viewed with the same respect. I’m sorry, but no. Claims that comics are now on a par with literature still deserve to get one laughed out of the room. The opinion that comics can begin to measure up to just the last century of literature is utterly absurd, and deserves to be treated as such by any moderately erudite and discriminating reader. To the extent anything has changed, an outside reader might be more inclined to give a comics effort the benefit of the doubt now. That’s all, and it’s not much.
Comics have also not acquired a new breed of highfalutin critic as a result of any “recognition.” I can only speak for myself, but I suspect my circumstances are similar to Suat’s and Noah Berlatsky’s and most other critics whom Eddie would likely include among “The Literaries.” I’m a long-time comics reader who also has an abiding interest in other fields, in my case fiction, poetry, fine art, and film. I’ve continued to follow comics because there are comics creators, such as Eddie, who produce work I find worthwhile. I enjoy thinking and writing about what I read, and that extends to comics. I don’t bring the “standards of LITERATURE” or any other snooty metric by which to judge material. All I ask is that I be reasonably entertained, and my tastes are pretty eclectic. I don’t care whether something is a superhero comic, young-adult adventure fiction, or a Clint Eastwood western, or, for that matter, a Tolstoy novel, a Jean-Luc Godard film, or lyric poetry from 13th-century Italy. If I find it reasonably engaging and I choose to write about it, I’ll treat it favorably. The flip side is that if I don’t like something, and I choose to write about it, I’ll treat it unfavorably. Again, I can’t speak for Suat, Noah, or other critics Eddie may have in mind with his essay, but I suspect their motives are about the same.
One aspect of being a critic with diverse interests who writes about comics is that you easily can find yourself at odds with the old breed of highfalutin comics critics. These are the ignorant (or insensible) blowhard cultists who liken Jack Kirby to Homer or identify Jaime Hernandez with Marcel Proust and roman-fleuve fiction. They’re essentially name-droppers, and one of their favorite platitudes is that comics are the equal of other artistic fields. Their fellow comics cultists don’t get after them for this nonsense for at least two reasons. One is that this cohort doesn’t know much of anything about, say, Homer or Proust, or work in other media in general. As such, they’re not in a position to argue. The other is that this foolishness flatters their tastes, which is the only interest critical writing really has for them. But if one is familiar with the outside artists in question, or is willing to ask the logical question that if comics are the equal of other fields, then how do its best works compare, it is hard not to call out this sort of thing. However, one is not going to endear oneself to the comics-cultist cohort by doing so. Their tastes are extremely bound up with their self-esteem. As such, they take arguments that Kirby or whomever should be treated with a more discriminating perspective as a personal attack. Worse, they often act as if the silliness you’re calling out never happened, which leads them to erroneously take you to task for making pompous, pretentious comparisons.
One can see this at work in Eddie’s essay. The question that Suat is implicitly starting with in his EC piece is that if this material is among the best this medium-that-is-the-equal-of-all-others has to offer, then how does it stack up when considered against the best work outside comics? He begins with the Harvey Kurtzman-edited Mad, generally considered the peak book of the EC line and arguably the field’s greatest humor effort, and he observes that compared to the most accomplished comedy material from other fields—work ranging from Aristophanes to Monty Python—the achievement of the individual Mad pieces is relatively modest. This is not to say that Suat does not respect Kurtzman and Mad. If he didn’t, would he have included this sentence in his article?
Harvey Kurtzman was undeniably a master of the form and the influence of Mad on American and European artists is inestimable.
That seems pretty laudatory to me. Eddie, though, only sees Suat’s call for perspective, and he interprets it as a dismissal of Kurtzman and Mad altogether. He mischaracterizes Suat’s position with this rhetorical question: “Since we already have Aristophanes, who needs Kurtzman?” He then goes on to sneer at Suat as a haughtily pretentious snob, one who “while[s] away his lunch hour with the immortals on Parnassus.” He seems entirely oblivious to the fact that the claptrap he appears to have unquestioningly swallowed–that comics are “on a par with Literature”–is what Suat was actually criticizing, at least relative to the EC comics line.
Moving back to the more general aspects of Eddie’s argument, he claims that we “Literaries” are demanding that comics be evaluated in a way that excludes consideration of their pictorial content. All we’re interested in are the words. Um, wow. That’s a straw man if there ever was one. (Sorry, Heidi, but it is what it is.) If Eddie or anyone else can point to a critic in our cohort who has argued that the pictures in a comic aren’t at least as important a textual element as the verbal matter, I welcome the link.
However, Eddie doesn’t really develop that line of attack. (Which is probably for the best, as it’s completely ridiculous.) He just shifts gears to claim that we “Literaries” have an inappropriate preoccupation with evaluating comics as stories. We’re applying “irrelevant criteria” by doing so. In Eddie’s view, the proper criteria are those that celebrate isolated flourishes without regard to the greater whole. And he provides examples: the sophisticated temporal construction of a single-image sex gag by Harvey Kurtzman; the energetic design of a costumed-character fight sequence by Jack Kirby; the gritty detail of a Jack Davis panel depicting a dead soldier slumped over his machine gun. For Eddie, the strength or weakness of the larger narratives these incidental bits contribute to is not germane. I don’t think it’s going too far to say that Eddie feels the only purpose of the larger narratives is to give the cartoonists an excuse for showing some flash.
That’s right, folks. If you’re reading a comic for the overarching story, and judge it by how effectively it tells that story, or even to what extent that story is worth telling at all, then in the view of Eddie Campbell (and Dan Nadel and Kim Thompson and Jeet Heer and Tom Spurgeon and Heidi MacDonald and numerous others), you’re reading and judging it wrong.
Part of me just wants to point to Eddie’s article and its reception among the comics-cultist crowd as Exhibit A as to why none of these people should be taken the least bit seriously as critics ever again. They’re of course entitled to their enjoyments, but they are so preoccupied with their abstruse little fixations that they seem completely divorced from the impulse that guides people to becoming audiences for cartoonists and other storytellers in the first place. The reason I can’t entirely dismiss the essay is because I’ve seen similar arguments in a field outside of comics, where they’ve been around for six decades and don’t appear to be going away. They can be found in film criticism, where they are a key part of the auteur theory.
For those not familiar with it, the auteur theory has its roots in the criticism François Truffaut wrote before he became a filmmaker himself. Andrew Sarris popularized the aesthetic in the United States during the 1960s. It is frequently misunderstood as an argument that the director should always be considered the author of the film. What Truffaut and Sarris were actually arguing was more or less the opposite. In their view, the director is not always the author of the film. With some films the screenwriter should be considered the author, or an actor should be considered the author, and so on. The best films, though, are directors’ films, which are films where the directors do not subordinate themselves to the screenplays. They instead use the screenplay as a taking off point for their own vision. In practice, as Pauline Kael noted, this amounted to “shoving bits of style up the crevasses of the plots” (I Lost It at the Movies, p. 303). From the standpoint of an auteur critic, writer-directors such as Ingmar Bergman, Billy Wilder, and Stanley Kubrick (until Barry Lyndon) were second-rate filmmakers. They were concerned with realizing their screenplays as best they could, rather than using the scripts as a starting point for something else. A first-rate film director was someone such as John Ford or Howard Hawks, for whom the screenplays, at least in the eyes of the auteur critics, were beside the point. (Contemporary auteur-critic favorites include Joe Wright, Clint Eastwood, and Andrew Dominik.)
Sarris trumpeted the rise of the auteur theory as the burgeoning triumph of visual aesthetic values over literary ones. In a laudatory 1963 review of the Otto Preminger film The Cardinal, he declared:
The primarily visual critics will hail it and the primarily literary critics will deplore it. […] If I side with the visual critics on Preminger, it is because we are in the midst of a visual revolution which the literary establishment is apparently ignoring if not actively resisting (Confessions of a Cultist, p. 111).
Sarris’s contemporary Dwight Macdonald, who had no use for the auteur theory, didn’t think much of The Cardinal. In his view, it was “stupid,” “in dubious taste,” and “trashy” (On Movies, pp. 155-156). His rejoinder to Sarris’s declaration above was especially memorable:
I promise to cease my resistance to the Visual Revolution, turn in my membership card in the Literary Establishment, and consider all future works of Mr. Preminger entirely in ocular terms–20/20 critical vision–as soon as he gives us a movie without plot or dialogue (p. 157).
With that, Macdonald pretty much sums up my feelings about the critical attitudes of Eddie and his fellow travelers. When a cartoonist gives us a comic without a story–Andrei Molotiu’s work is a good example–I’ll be happy to discuss it entirely in terms of its visuals. But if, like Kirby or Kurtzman or even Eddie Campbell, the cartoonist is presenting us with a story, I’m going to treat the visuals as part of a means to an end which happens to be that story’s realization. And one of the first questions I’m going to ask is how well it has rewarded my engagement relative to other comics, and work in other media as well. If Eddie considers that “inappropriate criteria,” that’s his problem, not mine.
There is a certain irony about Eddie’s piece. I cannot think of another English-language cartoonist who has done more to translate literary form and technique into comics terms. With “Graffiti Kitchen,” he did a superb job of realizing the comics equivalent of the personal essay à la Henry Miller; the interplay of exposition, absurdist commentary, and the evolving tropes that unify the material are nothing less than masterful. The Fate of the Artist, to pick another example, just as brilliantly incorporates strategies derived from postmodern literary theory. From Hell, “The Birth Caul,” and “Snakes and Ladders,” his collaborations with Alan Moore, certainly appear to be trying to compete with literary work on literary work’s terms. “The Literaries,” as Eddie calls us, would seem the natural audience for his comics, and several contributors here at The Hooded Utilitarian, including myself, consider his material, both on his own and with Alan Moore, among their favorite comics of all. One would think we’d be the last critics he would attack.
In closing, I suppose Eddie is like François Truffaut, whose efforts at filmmaking were often far removed from his critical attitudes. In films such as The 400 Blows, Jules and Jim, and The Wild Child, he didn’t treat the story material as a springboard for something else; he engaged with his content and realized it with an extraordinary richness. Dwight Macdonald, thinking of the chasm between Truffaut’s criticism and his better films, once wrote, “I prefer him as a director” (On Movies, p. 305). My attitude towards Eddie is much the same: I prefer him as a cartoonist.


46 Comments
I think
“preoccupied with our abstruse little fixations”
should replace
“a pundit in every panopticon”
on the masthead.
Fantastic article, Robert. I was thinking exactly the same thing while reading “The Literaries” – it’s bizarre to be hearing it from Eddie Campbell, whose work is easily some of the most “literary” comics work I’ve ever encountered.
I really appreciated the discussion of auteur theory. I have to admit (with some embarrassment) that I’m not that familiar with the ins and outs of the critical history,so for me it was a really useful summary.
One of the things that I think people can miss when they say that critics don’t understand comics for whatever reason is…everybody hates critics, pretty much. There’s a really long tradition of hating critics in literature too (not to mention film and the visual arts and music and on and on.) Claiming that critics don’t understand comics isn’t a way to separate comics from literature; it actually just makes comics participate in a well established discourse within literature (and other arts as well.)
I prefer Eddie Campbell both ways, as cartoonist and critic.
About literary comparisons… Of course can be made. But comparisons with an aesthetic logic. Honestly, comparing one of the great poems about WWI with commercial comics for kids (Kurtzman’s EC war comics) and applying the SAME criteria aesthetic seems to me absurd. And frankly I have not seen much of that out of the comics field.
(Just imagine: “Hey, yo, Terminator 2 is not bad; ok, is good, I liked it, but nothing Compared to King Lear.” Excuse me?)
The world of comics is always full of oddities, and here we have a kind of inverted fanboy logic. The ‘negative fanboy’, so to speak, or the ‘renegade fanboy’. Figuratively speaking, I insist.
I do not mean “you can’t never compare comics to movies or novels”, which clearly can be done. I am talking about appropriate comparisons with stuff that can be compared. I mean, compare Aristophanes with the first MAD? Really?
So, what’s this all about? Is about to “prove” that much of the history of comics is composed of commercial “crap” if we compare with the great literature? Oh, yes? Nobody knew that.
Pardon the irony.
Conversely, if we take that for granted, as Eddie Campbell does, we can talk about those old commercial comics for kids in different terms, and apply more relevant aesthetic criteria considering the type of stuff we are talking about. Certainly nothing to do with ‘literary comics’ to which you refer, by the way. Because Eddie was not referring to them but precisely to commercial comics for kids: 1950s EC and 1960s Marvel comic books.
Again, if we take that for granted (that commercial “crap” for kids, etc.), we can talk about the values ??of some of those old comic books. Otherwise, we can go back to the discussion of Adorno & Horkheimer against mass culture industry, or the old crusade of Greenberg against kitsch. But honestly, I think this is not only very old but outdated because it tells nothing about our world today.
If we take that for granted, the commercial “crap” in the history of comics, we can talk not only about that history, but also the present and the future of comics. And then perhaps the question is if all the comics will be composed of the same type of commercial “crap”, or if they can aspire to other kind of expression, or even comparable appropriately –with similar aesthetic criteria- to great literature or great cinema, etc.
Another positive note to finish. I think your point about autheur theory in films is very appropriate for our times in comics. An awareness of ‘author’ has emerged in the comics of the past decades, and therefore it seems natural that such awareness emerging in the debates.
Another constructive criticism (at least I think so). When I started reading this site, there was much more interesting debates. Especially when the discussion it was not about to “prove” the obvious, attending irrelevant comparisons or high & low oudated debates.
Please forgive as always my bad English, etc.
As far as the “auteur theory” goes, I don’t think it’s a black & white thing so much as a spectrum. A Robert Williams comic reads differently from an Alan Moore comic which reads differently from an Akira Toriyama comic. It really depends on a case by case basis depending on what the creator intentions and processes are. And with film its even more complex when taking account the acting, music and whether it’s a theatrical or TV production.
Pepo: I have very little interest in discussing the line of thought of a 10 year old essay. Suffice to say, I don’t consider “crap” suitable for inclusion in a list of best comics of all time.
I am, however, interested in poor old Aristophanes about whom people (not you) are getting the wrong idea. Like Robert said in comments somewhere else, I chose the Thesmophoriazusae on purpose. New readers expecting a stodgy classic will be surprised. It’s certainly clever and intellectual and all that, but it is also considerably more vulgar, “pornographic”, rude, and cruel than almost anything you will see on TV/movies (maybe Borat gets close). For something written over 2000 years ago, it’s incredibly “modern”. He’s certainly a shoo-in for one of the meanest critics in history. I guess Johnny Ryan should do an adaptation.
He could be nicer writer if read in Greek though. VM would know.
“A first-rate film director was someone such as John Ford or Howard Hawks, for whom the screenplays, at least in the eyes of the auteur critics, were beside the point. (Contemporary auteur-critic favorites include Joe Wright, Clint Eastwood, and Andrew Dominik.)”
I’m not sure I get what you’re saying here. Eastwood adheres to a script for the most part, doesn’t he? I don’t think he’s ever done too much “jumping off.” He’s pretty literal minded. And Joe Wright is the director of the latest Anna Karenina adaptation, which I haven’t seen but given the cinema adaptation history of that film…..
The auteur analogy is useful one, I think, but you’ve left out a couple of important parallels that might or might not lend some understanding or support for Eddie’s position. (1) The pre-Sarris version in France was a reaction to the tradition of quality, which was primarily about literary adaptations and expectations in cinema. Truffaut and others justifiably saw this as unfair to some of the differences between film and literature. Sarris’ version was sort of a bastardized one. But, at this point, I’m having a problem keeping straight who’s supposed to be too literary and who’s supposed to be the auteurist. (2) The post-Sarris version was (post-)structuralist in nature, bringing in a sense of each part of the film’s creations (cinematographer, scenarist, etc.) as auteur through a comparison of films within the potential auteur’s body of work. If any auteur theory applies, I think that’s probably more of Eddie’s view: that parts of a comic are important enough to think of them independently of narrative, plot, or any other part of the comic. However, the baffling part of his criticism of Suat is that its couched in terms of (as Mike alluded to somewhere) the gestalt, that he was narrowly and unfairly focusing, like Truffaut’s criticism of his French antecedents, on a certain aspect of comics. For one thing, that’s not an accurate reading of Suat and, for another, it runs contrary to Eddie’s own stance on parts often being more revealing than the whole in comics. You’re definitely right, though, a reconsideration of auteur theory (-ies) might do everyone some good.
And just to flesh out part of what Charles is saying about Truffaut- the “cinema of quality” that Truffaut was originally railing against was the “Oscar-bait” type of film that was dominant in France’s post-war cinema. The literal-minded opulent “English Patient” kind of thing. It was the cinematic equivalent of nineteenth century salon paintings.
But I’m still confused about that Howard Hawks reference. Maybe it depends on the film, but the Hawks I’m familiar with was not one to muck about with the script.
I’ve never understood the cult of Hawks. He was a journeyman director with some really good scripts and actors who could be consistently counted on to provide what was needed and not get in the way of his story. His “theme” or “style” largely consist of passing cigarettes around. Huston has never been as celebrated, but was similar only doing it with much more style.
“From the standpoint of an auteur critic, writer-directors such as Ingmar Bergman, Billy Wilder, and Stanley Kubrick (until Barry Lyndon) were second-rate filmmakers. They were concerned with realizing their screenplays as best they could, rather than using the scripts as a starting point for something else.”
Robert, I think you have your definitions mixed up here. Filmmakers like Bergman are just the type that Truffaut would’ve been praising when he first came out with the theory. He was in favor of directors that had a recognizable style above all. Your definition is in conflict with what’s on Wikipedia, which while not authoritative is not a bad jumping off point.
Charles — I’m a big fan of Hawks, but I wouldn’t say I’m a Hawks cultist. I loved best his films sporting machine-gun dialogue and snappy editing.
Steven–
I’ll be responding to comments later, when I have more time. Until then, I suggest you read “Notes on the Auteur Theory in 1962,” by Andrew Sarris. That’s where the examples of Bergman and Wilder come from. Click here.
Let’s not forget the Cahiers’ darling, Alfred Hitchcock.
As I said in previous comments this dichotomy (literary vs. visual, I mean) makes no sense whatsoever. Truffaut was certainly right (Steven above explained why already), but he was right for that particular time and place.
Dean–
I can’t speak for Noah, but I’m sure he gives all such suggestions due consideration.
Jacob–
Thanks!
Steven–
The values of auteur critics is a complicated subject. When they deal with most Hollywood movies, “shoving bits of style up the crevasses of the plots” is what they value. With Joe Wright, they like his tendency to include gratuitous pyrotechnics that don’t contribute to the storytelling at all. I mean, can anyone tell me what the point of that tracking shot in the Dunkirk beach scene in Atonement was? But with other directors–Eastwood and Dominik are prime examples–they seem weirdly impressed by ones who just turn the camera on and don’t shape the scene for any kind of effect. Eastwood, for example, reportedly never tells the actors anything and only does the most cursory blocking before shooting. The adjective that best describes these pictures is torpid, but the auteur critics appear to think there’s something profoundly existential about their atmosphere. What one person sees as incompetence, another sees as genius, I guess.
The only Eastwood pictures I’ve seen that didn’t strike me as lackadaisically made were Bird in the nightclub sequences and Mystic River. With the former, I know he’s a big jazz fan, so he was probably determined to do justice to the milieu. With Mystic River, he was working with a dream cast, with the two main actors accomplished directors in their own right. I suspect they directed the movie for him.
One thing I’ve noticed about several Eastwood films is that he often relies on crude shock material that the torpor serves to dry out. The films are still simplistic, but I believe people notice that the sensationalism doesn’t feel like sensationalism usually does, and think he may be up to something more substantial than he actually is.
Dominik is a complete incompetent. I can’t believe anyone would trust him with financing. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford is one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen.
Truffaut was big on the faux-existentialism of stasis-style filmmaking as a critic. He thought Hitchcock’s best film was Under Capricorn, which to most eyes is probably the most tedious thing Hitchcock ever committed to film. I don’t think Hitchcock viewed it with any pride, either. In that book-length interview Truffaut and Hitchcock did, you can pretty much feel Hitchcock squirming every time he brings it up.
A lot of people regard auteur critics as, in Pauline Kael’s description, “inside dopesters.” They see the filmmakers using the scripts as springboards for personal visions–usually reflected in the staging and camerawork–in ways that aren’t apparent to much of anyone outside of their cohort and fellow travelers. I don’t get why anyone would feel Hitchcock or Hawks weren’t dedicated to realizing their scripts, either.
Maybe Giles Deleuze’s concepts of image-movement and image-time are relevant to the discussion. I recently saw a Kiarostami very impressive documentary that he shot in Africa and the most interesting shots were those that he did when time seemed not to matter anymore. It’s not that time stopped, but by showing the same thing not “evolving” (his famous focused rain on the car’s windshield filmed from the car’s interior, for instance) a certain hypnotic and poetic sense of being alive seemed to irradiate from these images. Can’t we get that same sense from images-movement? I say we certainly can, and that’s why the dichotomy seems flawed to me.
This ain’t a movie column but I definitely prefer The Assassination of Jesse James to Mystic River (which I found incredibly bland and forgettable). Btw, have you written about the hatefulness of that Jesse James movie somewhere?
I wrote a review of it a few years back. Here’s the link.
Robert, I know less than zero about auteur theory (as in, everything I do “know” about it is probably false), but…that’s a weird trio to pick as current auteurists’ top of the pops. Those seem to me like three of the dullest, middlebrowest directors going (sadly, Paul Haggis doesn’t make the list). Surely there are many other directors with much more distinctive and unified personal vision through their work? Or is the point that these are the journeymen hacks who (unlike someone like, I don’t know, Miike or Haneke) present their “style” quietly and through superficially bland corporate pap — and who therefore are “appreciated” only by auteur theorists?
Jones–
I named them in a parenthetical statement in the post. I almost cut it when giving it a last look-see this morning before it went up. As for the choice of those three, I named them because they are huge favorites among the current auteurists. Far more than Haneke is, certainly. The most prominent current auteurist is probably Richard Brody, and he shredded Amour a few weeks back.
Whether or not there are “many other directors with much more distinctive and unified vision” isn’t relevant to my point. I wasn’t trying to make a list of strong contemporary filmmakers. I was naming the favorites of a particular sector of the critical community.
Let me add one thing. Just because a critic likes certain filmmakers, that does not mean the critic is necessarily an auteurist. A lot of people made this mistake with the auteurists back in the ’60s. “I like Hitchcock, Hawks, and Ford, so therefore I must be an auteurist.” No, you have to like them for particular reasons to be an auteurist. David Denby and Richard Brody both like a lot of Eastwood’s directorial oeuvre, but Denby isn’t an auteurist and Brody is. Denby likes him for the middlebrowism more or less, and Brody likes him for the auteurist mystagogy.
Noah- Everybody hates critics? I think people love critics when they also happen to be beloved artists. Last year in Wire magazine, a young female musician named Simon Reynolds as a big influence alongside her favorite bands. Maybe someday an artist will name you, Suat and Domingos as influences?
I think critics can help build something lots of people appreciate and make contributions that are valued, but generally people dont remember these things as well as they might remember the work of an artist, partly because it is harder to remember the critics name along with everything they have said.
I used to undervalue reading sites like this because it is harder for me to gauge everything I learned here than it is to remember what an artist gave me. So thankyou Noah, Mike, Domingos etc, you helped me think. Group hug!
A couple of years ago Kevin Smith was complaining about critics and Mark Kermode was saying that Smith had forgotten about the critics who supported his early films and that directors too often forget the critics who go to lengths to champion them.
You do see record sleeve and book dedications to critics quite often I think.
One thing I hate that a lot of critics do is when they treat artists like an animal in a zoo or a curious amusement for the benefit of an article. Too often do I see it claimed that an artist “was full of contradictions” followed by a list of things that are not contradictions at all, sometimes could barely even be described as a list of complexities. Articles full of assumptions about someone dead or distant enough that they cant answer back against bold claims just made for the sake of a juicy article/essay/book. Even critics who clearly adore oddball artists get some kick out of portraying them as sad little cranks whose genius we can enjoy but also judge something about their character that we cant really know for sure, to make some pompous point.
Surely I’m not the only one who hates it? Even though I cant call to mind any examples, it feels like I see it too often.
You’re welcome, Robert! Thanks!
——————-
Robert Adam Gilmour says:
Noah…Maybe someday an artist will name you, Suat and Domingos as influences?
———————
Not very bloody likely. I can see Domingos as “influencing” somebody to give up doing comics (“He made me see how hopelessly, stupidly childish they were!”). As for the others, where is the gushingly positive enthusiasm for the art form and its possibilities, the holding up of exciting new approaches that could be followed?
(Not that those qualities make for good criticism; indeed, it’s more like Team Comics cheerleading.)
Where the better kind of critic helps in in teaching one to sharpen perceptions, see beyond surfaces. Or, in the case of some such as Mr. Campbell, to offer up fascinatingly different ways to approach a work.
———————–
Robert Stanley Martin says:
[Campbell's] arguments are nothing new. He combines an angry defense of comics-cultist insularity with a broadside against those who look at comics through the prism of a broader interest in the arts.
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It’s fascinating the way arguments are skewed thus in counter-arguments. Anyone criticizing George W. Bush or predatory capitalism is said by the Fox News crowd to be “tearing down America”; if you’re opposed to the destruction of the ecosystem on which life on Earth depends, you’re an “eco-Nazi,” who “hates civilization” and “wants to return us to the Stone Age.”
Rather than “comics-cultist insularity,” Eddie Campbell’s life and work (as creator and sometime critic/essayist) show wide-ranging reading and interests. He’s a deep and original thinker, even if his arguments aren’t thought out or couched as meticulously as an Alan Moore script. His article does not acclaim insularity.
And, it’s not the lavender-scented “look[ing] at comics through the prism of a broader interest in the arts” which Campbell attacks, but the Procrustean Bed approach; mind-bogglingly simplistic assumptions which not only fail to take into account that the creative equivalent of a dessert has different aims than that of a main course, but damns the former for failing to be as substantial and “filling” as the latter.
That much of this distortion, skewing, and attacking comes from primitive reactions is revealed thus:
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…most have taken ["The Literaries"]–and I think correctly–as an attack on the perceived values of The Hooded Utilitarian and its contributors. (Calling us “The Literaries” is a step up for Eddie; he used to refer to us as “jackals.”)…
Eddie appears in the grip of the same delusion that afflicts a number of comics cultists…
Moving back to the more general aspects of Eddie’s argument, he claims that we “Literaries” are demanding…
Eddie…shifts gears to claim that we “Literaries” have an inappropriate preoccupation with evaluating comics as stories…
Part of me just wants to point to Eddie’s article and its reception among the comics-cultist crowd as Exhibit A as to why none of these people should be taken the least bit seriously as critics ever again…
Macdonald pretty much sums up my feelings about the critical attitudes of Eddie and his fellow travelers…
One would think we’d be the last critics he would attack…
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The betrayal! An attack upon an approach which is seen as absurd, misguided is seen as a personal assault. Everything is perceived in an “us” against “them” fashion; the “them” described as “cultists,” “fellow travelers” (for the kids out there, that’s a term used to describe Communist sympathizers in the Joe McCarthy era.)
And what are those “cultists” standing up for? As the title of Ng Suat Tong’s reponse to “The Literies” puts it, “The Comics Journal and Eddie Campbell: In Defense of Shit …”
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Robert Stanley Martin says:
Moving back to the more general aspects of Eddie’s argument, he claims that we “Literaries” are demanding that comics be evaluated in a way that excludes consideration of their pictorial content. All we’re interested in are the words. Um, wow. That’s a straw man if there ever was one…If Eddie or anyone else can point to a critic in our cohort who has argued that the pictures in a comic aren’t at least as important a textual element as the verbal matter, I welcome the link.
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Um, gee, that’s a toughie. It took all of a nanosecond to come up with Domingos, who makes Suat look like a comics-polybagging fanboy. Who at least once a week comes up with “if the story isn’t good, then the comic can’t be any good” pronouncements.
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
…If the story is unreadable the drawings aren’t any good, period. Because, as you hinted, the drawings are the story too. The drawings can’t be there just to beautify anything.
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http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/10/a-ditko-is-born/
(On that comments thread, I’d mentioned “I’d certainly accept how a story with either a fine script or artwork would be ‘intrinsically flawed’ [as James put it] if paired with mediocre art or writing. I wouldn’t go as far as to say it makes the ‘quality’ partner’s work into utterly worthless garbage by association.”)
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We have seen that there are a few problems with Jack Kirby’s superhero stories, but enlightened readers tend to value the drawings and the drawing style instead of the narratives. As if the former can be, in comics, totally separated from the latter. It can’t: both the iconical content of the drawings and the lines as such are a unit, a meaning generator.
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http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/funky-flashman/
Heavens, haven’t for forever the overwhelming mass of critics had no trouble whatsoever in separating and criticizing structural components of a work of art? Never mind stuff such as cinema, where it’s routinely noted how a talented thespian gave nuance and complexity to a shallowly-scripted character, a more-than-merely-able director elevated a clunky story.
In writing an author may be praised for characterization and dialogue, dumped on for poor plotting. And it was virtually de rigueur for Victorian critics to consider one painter as superior as a colorist, another better in depicting emotion, both lacking in other areas. Morally inspiring, “uplifting” subject matter was an important factor. (Re the last, see http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/a-teachers-resource-victorian-social-life-from-paintings/ ) You could be fine in some aspects, poor in others.
And, painting and writing are creative tasks overwhelmingly carried out by single individuals!
But Domingos would dismiss such analytic work by countless critics, including greats in the field, because all those works are “a unit, a meaning generator.”
Back to comics: Domingos, in addition, repeatedly argues that it doesn’t remotely matter how fine the comics art might be; if the writing isn’t “good,” the whole thing deserves to get flushed.
Which clearly indicates he considers the writing (for all this eyewash about “meaning generators”) overwhelmingly all-important; infinitely more so than the mere…drawings.
This cartoon serves as an example of that attitude, which dismisses the totality of a work, because some parts in isolation may not be great:
http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/Mike_59_Hunter/DaveBergDentist1_zpsc341be5a.jpg
Moreover, what does Domingos consider a “good” story? Certainly not a parody that’s merely amusing, a rip-roaring adventure yarn, etc.
Nope, his standards — which are held forth as the standards, and if you don’t agree, you’re saddled with puerile, infantile, unsophisticated tastes — mean that only writing which is highly sophisticated, complex, Politically Correct, rejects as “Manichean” any heroes-and-villains characterizations, utterly eschews formula, is acceptable for adults.
If that’s not the epitome of the stereotypically “literary” attitude, I don’t know what is!
“Not very bloody likely. I can see Domingos as “influencing” somebody to give up doing comics (“He made me see how hopelessly, stupidly childish they were!”). As for the others, where is the gushingly positive enthusiasm for the art form and its possibilities, the holding up of exciting new approaches that could be followed?”
Actually, I’ve had an artist or two say that something I’ve written has been inspiring for them. It’s always very gratifying.
It’s interesting that you assume that influence has to be equated with gushing positivity…..
Mike- I know it is a bit of a pain that this discussion is on so many different pages, but a recent comment by Jones (on his own “Lunch Hour” thread) did a very good job explaining to Domingos about the virtues of individual parts of a work that might just be dismissed as surface flash by some.
It seems to me often people have mini grudges that they frame each others arguments with, exaggerating and slightly distorting certain points. I understand why a young superhero fan might assume the worst about Suat and Domingos, but people who have known them for longer should know better.
I think when we( not pointing this at you Mike, I mean people in general including myself) feel threatened by some questions someone is making, there is a defense mechanism that caricatures the scary person. I felt that way initially about Domingos, TCJ and many other people.
It takes me back to the first issue of Comics Journal I ever bought, I was perhaps 14 and I bought a back issue for an interview with Todd McFarlane because I was a big fan at the time. Not only did the writers say Marvel and DC were shit, Alan Moore was saying it too; general criticisms of heroic violent stories. I was deeply troubled by the implication that I was an idiot for loving these things because they were my world at the time, my main source of pleasure in those days; but with enough time and context I could work out that when Gary Groth and co said Marvel were shit, he didnt mean everything that they had ever done was 100% shit; also coming to understand why he would be frustrated enough to not be more even about everything those companies put out.
I’ve come to be one of those guys that wishes DC and Marvel were gone (or changed dramatically) but I still have a passion for Fist of the Northstar despite its more than considerable flaws and Ditkos Dr Strange might be my favorite comic despite disliking the writing. I’m not into most of comics associated with alternative comics but I appreciate that a lot of these things exist.
I might be wrong, but I think if Groth hadnt been so aggressive towards the mainstream and its fans, I think he might have built something far greater than what we have now, although I’m grateful for what he and his gang have done.
I think everyone should keep in mind there are lots of kids and people who dont understand what their favorite comics companies have done to deserve such ire and you have to imagine what assholes we might look to them and be more careful. There are so many times I feel like shouting “GENOCIDE ON FANBOYS!” but ultimately I’d rather sympathize with how exploited and miserable they get and would like to help steer them towards something better that they might enjoy more.
I said a lot of this to Domingos before because I really do think aside from the occasional dismissiveness and using the word “kitsch” scarily close to the way some use “hipster” or “emo” as a shaming tag that doesnt have to explain itself or be more specific, he is doing far more important things than anyone else: bringing the focus on to lesser known things he feels are far more deserving of attention and asking people to see comics in a more ambitious way. Honestly, as much as I adore Graham Ingels, I think downgrading EC is inspiring because we can do so much better than that. How could someone saying “there are much better things” not be inspiring?
I’m really tired of the constant articles about what the mainstream are doing wrong, lets shift focus to who is getting it right but nobody is fucking talking about because we cant stop talking about shit comics that should be better. People keep saying how irrelevant DC and Marvel are yet insist on talking about them. I’ll buy their books if I like the look of them but that is happening increasingly less often.
Domingos- You have often mentioned how you were depressed by the TCJ and HU top100 lists but how did you feel about Gravett’s 1001 Comics To Read Before You Die book that you contributed to? I bought it a while ago because I was impressed by hearing how it explored lots of comics that were in different languages, out of print and obscure. I’m at the start and I have to admit reading about a lot of early humor strips is quite dull because they all sound the same regardless of how good they might be.
I’m not a comics expert but I dont think we are ready for a canon of works yet, just a canon of artists (none of Kirby’s individual works are, but Kirby himself is fine for a canon because he has undoubtedly made comics more interesting with the collective virtues of flawed works)
“The values of auteur critics is a complicated subject.”
And the comments here back that up. For instance, I don’t think “Under Capricorn” is a bad film. That type of thing wasn’t Hitchcock’s forte, to be sure, but it didn’t strike me as a disaster. Dominik’s “Jesse James” film I thought was one of the better American films of the decade, and I don’t even care for Malick that much. But having seen each only once I’m more than willing to reconsider.
In the end I think it’d be less awkward to discuss the ways the term is used currently by film and comic fans rather than the way Truffaut used it back then.
A few more comments. I’m not sure if this is accurate, but this Senses of Cinema article states that by the early sixties Truffaut considered the auteur theory “outdated:”
“Yet Matthews’ essay itself illustrates that ultimately Bergman’s work cannot really be accounted for within the criteria of auteurism, which was originally designed as a polemical means to unearth authorial traces and visual artistry in Hollywood cinema, (and which Truffaut, among others, declared by the early-’60s to be outdated).”
And this one does a decent job of explaining the rationale proponents of the theory had for praising to the ceiling someone like Hawks. He even mentions “Under Capricorn.”
Robert: 1001 comics are a lot of comics. It’s not only unlikely that the editorial choices are going to be unanimously accepted it’s impossible that such a thing happens. I’m sure that if we were talking about 101 comics you must read before you die the list would be a lot like TCJ’s and the HU’s. The thing is that 1001 entries allowed the inclusion of comics for all tastes (my 23 included). Which is good, of course.
Mike: let’s put it this way: if the drawings in a comic are the story (in Masereel’s wordless stories, for instance, but it happens in every comic ever made) and someone says that the story is crappy is said person saying that the story is crappy or is s/he saying that the drawings are crappy? You know? A (drawing) = A (story) = A (crap).
A practical example: is this a good drawing? My answer is, no it isn’t. I hope that no one needs me to explain why.
Robert: when I use the word “kitsch” I suppose that readers know what the word means. Maybe I’ll be more didactic next time.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
[Mike says] “…I can see Domingos as “influencing” somebody to give up doing comics (“He made me see how hopelessly, stupidly childish they were!”). As for the others, where is the gushingly positive enthusiasm for the art form and its possibilities, the holding up of exciting new approaches that could be followed?”
Actually, I’ve had an artist or two say that something I’ve written has been inspiring for them. It’s always very gratifying.
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“And that aspiring young comics artist went on to become famous as…Rob Liefeld!!”
(Sorry; couldn’t resist. I’m glad you got that good feedback…)
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It’s interesting that you assume that influence has to be equated with gushing positivity…
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Personally, I find quality criticism of value; alas, example after example of even the greatest, most accomplished creative folks shows them to be fragile little creatures, whom anything but gushing positivity makes shrivel up like a salted slug. (For instance, Ingmar Bergman said he never read critiques of his films because anything negative would make him feel “poisoned inside” for days…)
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Robert Adam Gilmour says:
…I think when…people in general including myself) feel threatened by some questions someone is making, there is a defense mechanism that caricatures the scary person.
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Yes, it’s a “human thing”! I hope people can take these debates as people arguing with their argument; if someone says, in effect, your argument is idiotic, it doesn’t mean the totality of your being is idiotic, simply that “this particular belief which you happen to maintain at this point in time is idiotic.”
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I said a lot of this to Domingos before because I really do think aside from the occasional dismissiveness and using the word “kitsch” scarily close to the way some use “hipster” or “emo” as a shaming tag that doesnt have to explain itself or be more specific, he is doing far more important things than anyone else: bringing the focus on to lesser known things he feels are far more deserving of attention and asking people to see comics in a more ambitious way.
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Yes, I’ve told him when he attacks something, he’s massively wrong half the time, but when he praises something, he shows remarkable erudition, perceptiveness, and taste.
At least in the titles I know anything about; he does have a penchant for lauding virtually unknown titles: “The greatest comic ever written was the 1956 “Žaibo vir?jai sriuba,” by Vyd?nas Goštautas of Lithuania…” (He didn’t really say that, but..)
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Honestly, as much as I adore Graham Ingels…
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Same here! I love “Ghastly”…
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I think downgrading EC is inspiring because we can do so much better than that. How could someone saying “there are much better things” not be inspiring?
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Where Suat was absolutely correct is in pointing out that, compared to later work, EC comics is far too idolized. That “EC’s “New Trend” war comics by Harvey Kurtzman and various” was #12, and Joe Sacco’s “Palestine” — an infinitely more powerful and sophisticated work — was #27, is exceedingly unfair.
Yet, one must take into account the “critical mass” (so to speak!) that certain works accrue by being considered “classics” over time. Kurtzman’s war comics had 50 years to build their rep; Sacco’s had but a fraction of that time.
Alas, when making an argument, people get too in love with their grand conceptions; shoot themselves in the foot by blathering on unthinkingly. Where a nuanced, measured argument would’ve raised virtually no hackles, instead he went on to dismiss the entire EC line as failures, even as comics aimed at children; and lines like…
““Over two millennia ago, Aristophanes was brilliantly mocking the tragedies of Euripides (Women at the Thesmophoria) and risking prosecution with forthright attacks on the leaders of Athens. Contrast this with what we get in Mad…”
…well, who could resist aiming a resonant razzberry in the direction of such a statement? What fun the Marx Brothers would have with such a “type”…
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
Mike: let’s put it this way: if the drawings in a comic are the story (in Masereel’s wordless stories, for instance, but it happens in every comic ever made)…
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How cunning! In the middle of a rhetorical question, you slip in as an absolute FACT your pet argument; that “the drawings in a comic are the story.”
How many years ago (at least ten, perhaps?) was it that I had my first online mega-debate; with you at the TCJ message board over your statement that “drawings are lines that think.” Maybe that makes a sort of poetic sense in Portuguese; as, perhaps, would “the drawings in a comic are the story.”
As mentioned earlier, though, countless critics throughout the world have no trouble separately critiquing component aspects of many works of art, including comics.
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…and someone says that the story is crappy is said person saying that the story is crappy or is s/he saying that the drawings are crappy?
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It depends. Is the person someone capable of such discrimination, or are they a fool, or an aesthetic ideologue?
RE: The Frazetta.
I’m staring to wonder if racism and misogyny should have their own sub-clauses appended to Godwin’s law.
Maybe if racism and misogyny go the way of Hitler someday. Until then, though, we’re stuck with having to deal with them, one way or the other.
“A practical example: is this a good drawing?”
Never thought about making the connection between Frazetta and Image Comics, but the facial expressions in that drawing sure points in that direction.
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Domingos Isabelinho says:
A practical example: is this [ http://frazetta.tumblr.com/image/29205143022 ] a good drawing? My answer is, no it isn’t. I hope that no one needs me to explain why.
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Certainly by the standards of a “Literary,” as I’d written earlier…
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…what does Domingos consider a “good” story? Certainly not a parody that’s merely amusing, a rip-roaring adventure yarn, etc.
Nope, his standards — which are held forth as the standards, and if you don’t agree, you’re saddled with puerile, infantile, unsophisticated tastes — mean that only writing which is highly sophisticated, complex, Politically Correct, rejects as “Manichean” any heroes-and-villains characterizations, utterly eschews formula, is acceptable for adults.
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…it fails.
However, aside from some anatomical awkwardness with the young woman’s head being a tad too big, bosom so high up, technically and for its commercial purposes at the time it’s an excellent drawing.
The action is dynamic; complex interaction between the figures clearly shown.
The great variety of tones and textures — fur, feathers, hair both straight and exuberantly curly, skin black and white — is beautifully delineated. Note how there is a tiny white demarcation to keep the head of the second African down in the right from blending into the arm of the first being choked. How the highlight on the right leg of that 2nd tribesman contrasts with the brow of the “breast grabber” in the foreground, how the shadow on that leg is then used to make BG’s nose and upper lip “pop.”
The anatomy is exaggerated, but — aside from Miss Bosoms — believable; facial expressiveness adds to the pulpy melodrama.
Re the shark-like teeth of the tribesmen, it not only adds to the menace depicted, but is based on fact: “In many areas of Africa, the indigenous tribes practice different forms of tooth filing, including pointing, separating, and even full removal of the teeth. This custom is especially prevalent amongst tribes in West Africa and Congo…” (Emphasis added; from http://blog.bodycandy.com/2012/07/27/modification-around-the-world-tooth-filing-in-africa/ )
That those attacking and threatening the hero and his girlfriend are unflatteringly depicted — rather than drawn as dignified Sidney Poitier types — is not only appropriate, but a “plus” in “the ‘good guys’ are good looking, the ‘bad guys’ are ugly” shorthand of popular visual communication. Which itself is, regrettably, based on innate biological human programming, which favorably views “easy on the eyes” people, looks down upon the homely.
(BTW, the whole Frazetta story from that issue, “the only comic he drew in its entirety” at http://comicbookcatacombs.blogspot.com/2010/05/frank-frazetta-tribute-thunda-king-of.html . And, for contrast, the Jae Lee cover replacing Frazetta’s for a modern reprinting of that Frazetta story: http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Thunda01-Cov-Lee1.jpg , http://westfieldcomics.com/wow/art/med/JUN121012.jpg )
Yes, that Frazetta “Thun’da” #1 cover might as well be a poster advertising a “Storm Saxon Goes Back in Time!” episode. But is the presence or absence of racial enlightenment in a work of art a significant aesthetic criterion now? Why not reject all Old Master nudes for showing women as “sex objects”?
In “Stereotypes in Toeshoes,” we can read how “…clichéd and sometimes offensive views of race remain alive and well across the art form. Several of the old ballets and a few of the new ones give us national and racial stereotypes that would be unshowable in a play or a movie.” ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/arts/dance/ballet-clings-to-racial-ethnic-and-national-stereotypes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )
From another perspective, though, anything done by “dead white males” deserves wholesale dismissal; while anything done by someone who is from a Third World country, nonwhite, nonChristian, with being a woman a major plus, immediately goes to the head of the line. (It’s not “racism” because whites are the target, it’s not “sexism” because it’s males being knocked down.)
Not an argumentative point, but an interesting “find”: “Clements exhibit explores visual roots of racist stereotypes” tells how a little-known early 19th-century cartoonist, Edward Williams Clay, would…
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…craft a visual vocabulary that had tremendous influence through America’s mid-19th century. His cartoons reflected the dubious humor of many Americans in both the North and South who found the idea of black assimilation to be questionable at best — and ludicrous at worst. Clay mocks these aspirations through exaggerated physiological features as well as the ridiculous adoption of clothing and manners.
As Jones and Lewis’ exhibition catalogue says, “Clay’s ideas about race were quickly taken up by others. A countless number of 19th century engravers, lithographers, cartoonists, and illustrators adopted Clay’s visual strategies. They transformed what began as a local look at black life in Philadelphia into a national taxonomy of race.”
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http://www.annarbor.com/entertainment/reframing-color-review/
More Clay: http://tinyurl.com/ch8xaxc
http://www.librarycompany.org/blackfounders/images/section5/7-4.jpg
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h486.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h487.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h488.html
Mike wrote:
“That those attacking and threatening the hero and his girlfriend are unflatteringly depicted — rather than drawn as dignified Sidney Poitier types — is not only appropriate, but a “plus” in “the ‘good guys’ are good looking, the ‘bad guys’ are ugly” shorthand of popular visual communication.”
Your argument is terrible.
First, you created a false dichotomy between a “Sidney Poitier” type and a depiction of Africans that is a jumble of the worst stereotypes imaginable.
You seem sort of aware of this, so you mount a weird slippery slope argument about the depiction of women to make the case that if we call this Frazetta racist then we have to dismiss the work of every white male on the planet as racist and sexist.
In the second part of the sentence, you defend Frazetta’s visual short-hand on the basis that he’s just using the shorthand typical of visual communication, which is true, but the shorthand is in service of a stereotype that is deeply harmful, and that perpetuates a dark continent narrative that still exists. The Clay example you cite actually explains how this happens (in a nutshell, when visual communicators use visual stereotypes they often perpetuate harmful oversimplifications about those not in a position to communicate on their own behalf), but you’re so deeply invested in defending white dudes against some perceived onslaught of ideological criticism that you missed the point.
Yeah…and furthermore, I’d argue that all old white dead dudes really did not depict women in necessarily sexist ways. Shakespeare has a lot of quite strong and interesting women characters, as just one example. Rembrandt’s depiction of women (from what I’ve seen) is various, but can’t really be described as just sexist or objectifying. The eagerness to put sexism and racism off the table is no boon to past artists, many of whom were great in part because they had thoughtful things to say about those issues. It’s quite, quite silly to suggest that all of Western art will fall if we downgrade one really racist Frazetta drawing for being racist.
1. The Godwin’s law bit.
I made my point messily there. I didn’t mean that when racism or sexism are brought up that the conversation is neccssarily over. (So it’s not really Godwin’s law.) I just meant that the way those two things are brought up often follows a similar pattern to ‘reductio ad hitlerum.’
“So, you’re saying [insert social evil here] is ok are you??!?”
2. Frazetta’s amazingly deft cover, steeped in Imperialism as it is.
Art doesn’t have to be righteous. Art doesn’t have to be taken as morally exemplary or prescriptive. For many of us, that is the least of our concerns when appreciating it.
That’s why it’s time to agree to disagree and move on.
What bothers me though is not that. What really bothers me is the assumption that if you care about meaning you’re a “literary,” if you don’t (art is just forms and techniques saying nothing, or something… even when the meaning is as blunt as that Frazetta cover… art for art’s sake I guess) you like images. Why is it that literature people can’t appreciate the form of a literary work, the technique of the writer, the sound of words? Why is the meaning of a comic “literary”? Thousands of years of visual art’s history taught us nothing?
Hmm well, if you’re actually all about meaning you’re a semiotician or something, aren’t you?
Speaking of which, something I really like about that Frazetta thing is that it’s such an expression of colonialist arrogance. The protagonist is not someone I sympathise with at all (he looks like a mega-douche-bag to me) – he’s an exquisitely manifested avatar of a psychology which is self-aggrandising enough to call itself King of the Congo and sees grotesque savages all around, leering at his woman and being satisfyingly squishable. It’s utterly disgusting, whether or not it’s supposed to be, and that may be because Frazetta was such a good artist that his work transcends his own personal viewpoint. Unless it was supposed to be ironic – it would look about the same if it was.
I like the composition too, it’s cramped and shallow but the swirling effect of the forms’ arrangement gives a strong feeling of the whites being surrounded on all sides.
Semioticians can be super-formalist themselves… And I think what Domingos is getting at is that form and content combine to create meaning, and trying to focus on one over the other when it suits your agenda is a shell game.
You discussion of the Frazetta cover is actually a good example of how you can “read” the meaning out of an image through reference to form (“cramped and shallow” form contributes to content “the whites being surrounded,” which results in meaning, which you argue is an inadvertent indictment of imperialism). Actually, you pretty much just deconstructed the cover. What are you, some sort of postmodernist;)…
Yeah; I really like that reading of the cover too, Briany.
Oh, thanks.
But, I mean, is that reading actually representative of “the meaning” of that work?
Isn’t the story,: our mighty hero bests a load of [censored] and doesn’t think it too many?
Isn’t what I like about it located in the Imaginary, rather than the Symbolic? I.E. it is a narcissistic pleasure; the joy comes from my own image, my self-distinction from the other, not from the socially communicated Symbolic meaning/message (intentionally) spoken by the (conjectural) author.
Further – as that (which is explicated by my “reading”) is my spontaneous and uplifting experience of the piece, and experience is all we have of art (etc), is it “a good drawing”?
All that ceased to matter, at least to me, the moment I agreed to disagree. But since you asked: I defend the right of “the literaries” to be formalists, and the right of “the picturaries” to care about meaning.
Ha!
I can agree to agree with that!
I don’t know if this a coincidence or what, but Pat Ford just linked to this 1971 National Lampoon cover by Frazetta:
http://www.marksverylarge.com/images/7104cover_l.jpg
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Briany Najar says:
…Something I really like about that Frazetta thing is that it’s such an expression of colonialist arrogance. The protagonist is not someone I sympathise with at all (he looks like a mega-douche-bag to me) – he’s an exquisitely manifested avatar of a psychology which is self-aggrandising enough to call itself King of the Congo and sees grotesque savages all around, leering at his woman and being satisfyingly squishable. It’s utterly disgusting, whether or not it’s supposed to be, and that may be because Frazetta was such a good artist that his work transcends his own personal viewpoint. Unless it was supposed to be ironic – it would look about the same if it was.
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Hah! Yes, the “hero” looks like a macho jock…
I’d done (and posted at HU) this little experiment in perception back in 2011. With apologies to Frazetta :
http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/Mike_59_Hunter/SpicyPostColonialism3.jpg
Re “the miracle of perception,” have been wanting to bring up this story up at HU; this seems as good an occasion as any:
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What Will Happen to One of the Northwest’s Preeminent Artists—Whose Nazi Imagery Has Always Been Considered Ironic—Now That His [pro-Nazi] Views Are Not a Secret?
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Details at http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/charles-krafft-is-a-white-nationalist-who-believes-the-holocaust-is-a-deliberately-exaggerated-myth/Content?oid=15995245
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Nate says:
Mike wrote:
“That those attacking and threatening the hero and his girlfriend are unflatteringly depicted — rather than drawn as dignified Sidney Poitier types — is not only appropriate, but a “plus” in “the ‘good guys’ are good looking, the ‘bad guys’ are ugly” shorthand of popular visual communication.”
Your argument is terrible.
First, you created a false dichotomy between a “Sidney Poitier” type and a depiction of Africans that is a jumble of the worst stereotypes imaginable.
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Your response is terrible. Sidney Poitier was brought in because to the more-PC-than-thou types, only an utterly perfect, totally dignified portrayal such as that of his “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner?” character would be deemed acceptable.
(At http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/thomas-nast-and-the-art-of-betrayal/ , see how “an utterly perfect, totally dignified portrayal” in Thomas Nast’s “And Not this Man?” is favorably contrasted to one depicting bug-eyed, argumentative black politicos.)
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You seem sort of aware of this, so you mount a weird slippery slope argument about the depiction of women to make the case that if we call this Frazetta racist then we have to dismiss the work of every white male on the planet as racist and sexist.
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Noah Berlatsky says:
Yeah…and furthermore, I’d argue that all old white dead dudes really did not depict women in necessarily sexist ways. Shakespeare has a lot of quite strong and interesting women characters, as just one example. Rembrandt’s depiction of women (from what I’ve seen) is various, but can’t really be described as just sexist or objectifying.
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Did I say that “ALL old white dead dudes really did depict women in necessarily sexist ways”?
First, I was not referring to all depictions of women, but to nudes, saying “Why not reject all Old Master nudes for showing women as ‘sex objects’?”
Second, since when does innocence prevent one from being unfairly attacked? Why, here at HU we’ve had Alan Moore, creator of countless complex, sympathetically-depicted women and gay characters, financial supporter of gay-rights causes, attacked as misogynist and homophobic. And there certainly have been plenty of extremists attacking all “old dead white male” creators as hopelessly tainted by colonialism, racism, sexism; and therefore to be discarded and supplanted by views from the Third World, a region of perfect enlightenment, totally free of those sins.
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Nate says:
In the second part of the sentence, you defend Frazetta’s visual short-hand on the basis that he’s just using the shorthand typical of visual communication, which is true, but the shorthand is in service of a stereotype that is deeply harmful, and that perpetuates a dark continent narrative that still exists.
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Yes. So? (It’s absurd that I should have to say this, but no, I’m not in favor of racism…)
Do you then share with Domingos the attitude of those Victorian art critics mentioned earlier, where morally inspiring, “uplifting” subject matter was an important factor in the valuation of a work of art?
I wouldn’t go as far as he does; but, from an old TCJ message board thread (the whole message board’s contents since dispersed into the ether), a comment by Kim Thompson:
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The reason I haven’t yet risen to the defense of Hergé here is because re-reading Paul’s note I’m beginning to realize that we approach art from such radically different perspectives that I don’t know that we can find any common ground. Paul seems to have swallowed the whole sophomoric nonsense about narrative art being somehow “validated” only by the “realism” or “complexity” of the characters, whether or not the material addresses “significant issues,” and so on. By which standard, of course, the worst movie made by John Sayles, the most trivial “intimate character portrait” piece of piffle to come out of Sundance, is better than the best movie made by Howard Hawks — and any second-rate piece of modern “serious” fiction is better than a P.G. Wodehouse novel. And THREE FINGERS is better than POPEYE.
TINTIN’s characters are flat, yes. The adventures are often silly… But… so what? RIO BRAVO’s characters are all cowboy-movie clichés (played by a gallery of actors who are no one’s idea of thespian greatness: John Wayne, Walter Brennan, Dean Martin (!), Ricky Nelson (!!), Angie Dickinson), the story is so generic even I don’t remember it… and yet it’s one of the greatest westerns ever made.
Complexity and realism of characterization, significance of themes, and all that shit are all vastly overrated as indicators of artistic brilliance by self-anointed critics. There are many, many works, particularly in comics, that feature characters who are ciphers, plots that are silly and trivial, and mean nothing beyond their “adventure” or “comedy” that are among the greatest works ever created. Franquin’s GASTON LAGAFFE, several hundred pages’ worth of gags about a lazy office boy, is better and greater than any comic created anywhere in the world in the last 20 years — and yes, I include the entirety of Fantagraphics’ output.
TINTIN is rightly perceived as a masterpiece that can be read and enjoyed by anyone, and will be so pretty much forever. …
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Quoted at the juicy http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2010/08/phooey-from-me-to-you-masters-of-american-television/ thread…
And no, Thompson is not arguing that “literary” qualities are worthless crud, but that a creative work can still be brilliant despite their lack.
One wonders about what Thompson means by the “greatest” here; but, I’ve an idea that it’s in containing qualities similar to the ways in which Kurtzman’s EC war comics are “better” than Joe Sacco’s war comics.
For all the greater richness, thoughtfulness and complexity of Sacco (yet another Fantagraphics-boosted creator), Kurtzman utilizes the comics art form more fully, in a more vibrant, dynamic fashion. His tales, being short stories, can achieve a more concentrated dramatic “punch” than Sacco’s sprawling multi-character narratives, which being wholly reality-based are unable to achieve the neatly satisfying resolutions that fictioneers take for granted. As an artist, Kurtzman is leagues beyond Sacco, as the latter would likely agree, despite Sacco’s being better in some areas…