Over on the TCJ message board, there’s a conversation about manga, which takes the expected depressing course. Here’s R. Fiore, making some of the usual arguments:
I don’t see what you’re supposed to get or not get about manga. You like that kind of thing or your don’t. Obviously they turn out too much too quickly. The question you ask yourself is how many manga readers will develop a broader interest in comics in general. I think there may be reason to think they’d be even less likely to broaden their interest than the superhero audience, but if only a small percentage did the audience for comics would expand significantly.
It sounds like it makes sense…and then you think about it, and realize that it means nothing at all.
“You like that kind of thing or you don’t.” Parasyte and Nana, to name two of my favorite titles, are pretty darn different from each other; I can see not liking one, or not liking the other, or not liking both, but it wouldn’t make sense to dislike both for the same reasons, because stylistically, thematically, even artwise, they don’t have all that much in common (except that the storytelling and art are good, I guess.)
“Obviously they turn out too much too quickly.” The level of craftsmanship in manga is very high, from what I can tell — they don’t look nearly as shoddy as mainstream American comics…or as alternative American comics, for that matter. Not every title’s a gem, obviously, but that seems more like the luck of the draw than some sort of chronic case of over-production. There’s a lot of manga because a lot of people (both artists and consumers) are really into it.
“The question you ask yourself is how many manga readers will develop a broader interest in comics in general.” Again, what the hell? Manga’s an enormous category; the bulk of what’s available hasn’t even been translated. It’s also much more interested in serving a wide demographic (agewise, genderwise) than American comics is. You could spend the rest of your life just reading manga, I’m sure, and the quality of the product would probably be at least as high in general as what you’d find in American comics. Why, then, is moving outside of manga supposed to mean that your interest is “broader”?
I think Fiore’s right about one thing, though — an interest in manga is not necessarily going to translate into an interest in super-hero titles or alternative titles, especially when the people who create those books show little interest in making comics for the groups of people manga primarily serves. It’s like saying, “oh, if people like Ciara, maybe that’s a good way to get them hooked on Otis Redding.” No, it’s not. And nor should it be, because Ciara’s fucking great — and despite the endless whining of thirtysomething guys — the teen girls who are into her have nothing to be embarrassed about.
“The question you ask yourself is how many manga readers will develop a broader interest in comics in general.”
I’d say they are into comics in general. The “either-or” mentality is sort of ridiculous here. Manga simply are comics. A lot of criticism of them comes from this erroneous belief that manga itself is a comics genre. That’s why I generally avoid the term “manga,” which just means “comics” in Japan. When I show my students “Hellboy,” they think, “Amerika no manga desu!” That’s an American manga.
Furthermore, why can’t we inverse that question? Will people into American comics ever develop an interest in international comics? Not just Japanese comics. While standard American superhero comics are all well and good (I love them), it doesn’t seem like that audience is particularly interested in anything outside that genre- up to and including indie and small publisher comics from American and/or Canadian publishers. And anything Japanese is anathema to them, despite American creators’ wholesale scavenging and ripping off concepts from Japanese creators… including in the case of no less than Frank Miller the very storytelling methods that superhero fans frequently decry in Japanese comics.
So yeah, while many Japanese comics are crap, how is that any different from fans badmouthing “Countdown” or whatever else people are pissed about today (it’s Thursday, so there must be something)? Quite a few Japanese creators are easily the equal of top Western creators, and some- like writer Koike Kazuo- are vastly superior.
Again, Frank Miller seems to think so because he’s made half his career copping off Koike and Koike’s “Lone Wolf and Cub” artist Kojima Goseki. There are plenty of others we could name with just a little Googling.
It’s the either-or that gets me. People complain endlessly about how sucky this or that comic is, but then they won’t pick up something outside a very narrow definition of acceptability. Those comics are Japanese, therefore they’re in direct competition with American comics and must be defeated at all costs.
Rather than looking at them as part of comics as a whole and a worthy entertainment choice.
Wow… sorry about how long that was but you really got me thinking! Great post by the way!
Hi Joel. I think a part of the dynamic that is (quite reasonably) frustrating you has to do with the fact that, for many Western readers, manga for practical purposes means “shoujo.” Obviously, there’s a ton of other stuff out there, but the huge success has been with comics for young girls — a group that our culture as a whole, and comics geeks in particular, tend to view with deep critical mistrust.
Of course, you could just read manga for the rest of your life and enjoy it…but that doesn’t mean that it’s unreasonably for people in the U.S. comics industry to hope that some of that bleeds over to American comics. Likewise, you can listen to 1990’s and 2000’s R and B and enjoy it tremendously…but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t also enjoy Otis Redding if you gave it a shot. Where’s the harm in expanding horizons? It’s true mainstream US comics circa 2007 may not be expanding horizons much…but it’s not crazy to think someone might like Otis or Aretha or whatever if they gave it a try…
Of course the clip you included in the article implies that somehow manga is worse than the alternative, which is silly…but the “hope” for manga readers to crossover is surely based less on some belief in the inherent “goodness” of American comics…and more based on desperate jealousy and desire for more readers.
I don’t think it’s just based on jealousy. The argument is of the entry drug sort; once you’ve tried the sugary, mediocre crap, then you’ll be ready to move on to the real stuff. It’s both condescending and wrong, I think.
Of course it’s possible to enjoy Ciara and Otis Redding. It’s also possible to enjoy Aphex Twin and the Carter Family, or Louis Armstrong and Khanate. But liking one doesn’t lead to liking another in some sort of straightforward or qualitative progression.
The people who do like Khanate and Louis Armstrong tend to be hipsters like me — people whose cultural identity is built on a certain kind of eclecticism. That’s a tiny percentage of the audience. Most people who are into manga or current R&B are into it for genre reasons which aren’t going to be easily translatable to other products in the same medium. Expecting them to be is just silly. Sneering at them for it is condescending, and tends, in these cases, to be tied up with gender, class, and racial antagonisms which are particularly unappealing.
Your comments on the other thread were fun; when I say “subjective” I don’t mean “divorced from society” at all. I think aesthetic responses are predicated on lots of social and cultural things, though there’s also a part that is inexplicable, I think….
And, jeez, if you think that was a flamewar, you should see some of the discussions I get into….
Yes…but there are enough similarities between some of these things that the hope/expectation of some crossover interest is not unreasonable. Is shoujo manga so different from american alt. comics soap operas like Love and Rockets and/or Strangers in Paradise that there isn’t crossover potential? Probably not.
And obviously, there’s some distant lineage between Ciara and Otis…although obviously older R & B has been appropriated by generations of aging white hipsters and therefore may be less appealing on a cultural level to the Ciara demographic. Musically, though, it might be more appealing.
“Most people who are into manga or current R&B are into it for genre reasons”
I think this is a key point for the “manga readers moving on to reading American comics too”. The main genres of manga that have made it to English translation are those that are least represented by American comics (Name one current American romance comic… I can’t off the top of my head). And it certainly helps that the serialization of manga is much different than American comics: requires less constant attention (you dont have to but a pamphlet every month or wait many many months for trades), cheaper price ( I think most manga volumes are cheaper than American TBPs), smaller size (you can carry it around and read it more discretely).
Eric, I haven’t read Strangers in Paradise, but I think that Love and Rockets is really very different from shoujo. L&R does have female characters, and it is about relationships — but it isn’t very girly at all. As just one example, shoujo appeals very directly and intentionally to teen girls prurient interests — cute boys, angst filled relationships, cute boys, etc. L&R’s prurient interests are mainly directed towards hot women. If you’re looking for crossover marketing potential, that kind of difference is hugely important.
In terms of potential appeal to shoujo lovers, I think you can make a much better case for Sandman. In fact, if I were DC, I’d think seriously about reissuing that series through bookstores in black and white manga-sized volumes. (DC actually did try something like this with a manga-lite Sandman series illustrated by Jill Thompson, but the less said about that the better.)
Derek also raises a bunch of points about marketing and distribution which I hadn’t thought through, but which I think are also very telling. The Ciara/Otis analogy works here too. People who are into Ciara are generally listening to her on urban hit radio and/or by trading songs on ipods with friends. People into Otis are finding him in record stores (and on their friends ipods.) The venues are different, and so crossover just isn’t going to happen.
Nobody is finding anything in record stores anymore. Maybe at certain “event” type stores in big cities (Amoeba in San Francisco comes to mind), but everything is now online, stealing other people’s ipod libraries, etc. Surely Ciara lovers have parents…If you hear something once and like it, it’s easy enough to get for free. Radio is still a powerful medium of promoting new music, of course…but the notion that Otis Redding is only going to be found in record shops is just not true. And thank goodnes…since most of them are closing.
Love and Rockets (at least the Gilbert stories) certainly borders at time on soft porn for men…but I’m pretty sure it had a reasonably large female readership (large for alt. comics anyway). Aren’t some of the guys in there hot, too? Maybe you’re right though…I haven’t really read much of the manga, so I can’t comment. Strangers in Paradise in being released in manga-sized volumes, though…so obviously they’re hoping for that kind of crossover. I only read the first one…but it’s got a mix of action and romance (straight and gay), so maybe there’s something there. I guess the fact that you have to search for examples is the whole issue, though.
Rather than pocket-sized paperbacks, they just seem to be going bigger and more expensive with Sandman (etc.) with these Absolute Editions. Giant-sized, super-expensive hardcovers. Have you seen them? Do they think comics geeks are made of money? It started with Absolute Watchmen, I think…which is just silly. There’s virtually no “extras” I could imagine ever wanting, and they triple the price…just for “big” and “hardcover”. I’ll keep my paperbacks.