Various members of the When Fangirls Attack crowd explain why I was wrong, wrong wrong in this post.
The only thing I really wanted to respond to was that a couple people accuse me of being prejudiced against fan fiction, and (by extension) kind of sexist (since fan fiction is mostly written by women writers.) I just want to say, again, for the record: I have no problem with fan fiction. Some of my closest friends write fan fiction: notably kinukitty, who is now writing a yaoi column for this site — a column which, I am informed, will also probably discuss slash fiction at some point in the not too distant future. In my Gay Utopia project, I included a number of fan fiction related contributions by Kinukitty and others (here; here and here.) I’m a fan of Clamp, a collective that started out doing dojinshi, or fan-fiction Japanese comics. I wrote an essay in praise of Torchwood’s fan-fiction roots.
I think fan fiction, like most genres, is prone to some characteristic weaknesses. I think those weaknesses are exacerbated in super-hero comics, where corporate stewardship tends to pander to the lowest common denominator and excise the more interesting visions (which in fan fiction often involve unexpected romantic pairings.) Given that, my guess would be that there’s WW fan-fiction out there that’s better than most of what has been done with the character since Marston died.
Noah, I certainly don’t hate you, and I don’t think anyone else has said that. And Nevermore/Bookworm or me reacting to or expressing our opinions on your writing has nothing to do with WFA, other than that once we’re all done writing, reading or ranting, they’ll be linked if they’re relevant to women in comics.
Not to mention that Nev apologized to you for getting angry at you, and says in her own post that she lost her temper.
While you said in your “Diana Sue” post, and in this one, that you don’t have anything against fanfiction, the post did have a tone of condescension toward it, and directed toward Bluefall. I do realize that may not have been your intention, or that it may have been in jest, but it still came across that way to me. I was reacting to what I got out of your post, not at you specifically as a person.
That being said, there is generally a lot of derision directed at fanfiction, and many people refer to writing they don’t like as “fanfiction” as an insult. And again, as I mentioned in my comment, I’ve seen all sorts of female characters get dismissed as “Mary Sues” that they may as well all fit the title. Which makes it pretty meaningless–or is indicative of a double standard that audiences have for male and female characters.
So, it wasn’t really all about you. ;)
Hey Maddy. I didn’t really think anybody hated me. The title of the post is a joke.
I know there’s a lot of derision directed at fan fiction, and I can see where that would make folks sensitive. Also, I didn’t think Nev had anything to apologize for, actually — though I did appreciate the gesture.
When you say you’ve seen female characters dismissed as Mary Sues, are you talking about characters in fan fiction in particular?
Yeah, I never said I hated you, and that post was a clarification on why I lost my temper and an apology to Bluefall.
I apologized because I think I was too vehement and went overboard with the “I DO NOT RESPECT YA NO MORE!” thing, when I could have reacted much more calmly. I am stressed about exams. and all right now, but when that’s over, I plan to do a calm explanation of disagreement of a few Wondy related posts we’ve linked on WFA, to generate discussions.
Not to speak for Maddy, but I have personally seen SO many female characters get dismissed as Mary Sues. When I was in Harry Potter fandom, Ginny, Hermione and Luna were accused of being sues (mostly Ginny because OMG ship destroyer) and pretty much any female superhero is targeted by the accusation regardless of what huge gaping flaws they have. And I can’t count the number of people who complain about Wonder Woman’s “sueness” while adoring Superman, which is why I initially assumed you might be one, for which I also apologize.
Nah, I hate everything pretty much equally.
It’s interesting; I’ve just recently read both Jeff Brown’s most recent autobio book and Ariel Schrag’s Likewise, and I was thinking that part of the reason I like Schrag almost infinitely more is that Brown treats his persona as essentially a Mary Sue, while Schrag doesn’t treat her persona that way.
I think Mary Sue is a pretty useful critical idea, but it certainly isn’t only applicable to female characters. There are just tons of male characters who fit…Superman, certainly, and often…Lord Peter Whimsy…James Bond…the list goes on….
The derision directed at fan-fiction by writers/fanboys is more than a little ridiculous, since every writer working at DC/Marvel today is just a fan who gets to write fan-fic for a living. Much of the difference between “canon” and fan-fic is legalistic, not qualitative.
Also, you don’t need to worry, Noah. Nobody hates you … except for Ed Risso fans. And maybe Mark Waid.
When you say you’ve seen female characters dismissed as Mary Sues, are you talking about characters in fan fiction in particular?Well, I’m sure it does happen in fanfiction discussion, but I was actually referring to people labelling characters in original/legally published and copyrighted/trademarked fiction. It’s especially common with new female characters, or those that are powerful, helpful or useful in solving the problem of a story, or sometimes even just well-liked by other characters in the story.
If one finds a character to be unlikable, poorly written, or just inconsistent, then fine. But those things don’t make that character a Mary Sue, and persistent (mis)use of that label ends up replacing any real criticism of the writing in question.
Personally one fictional character that strikes me as a Mary Sue is the main character in Twilight. Well, her and Batman. And considering the vast differences between those two, it goes to show you the term can be probably be argued to apply almost every character ever.
MS tends to be either:
1) a character with an unbelievable array of convenient and useful skills/abilities/qualities, or
2) a character that is pretty much an avatar for the writer (sometimes in combination with type 1)
So when dealing with superheroes, you will inevitably wind up with lots of the first type. And when it comes to the second, most writers inject something of themselves into the characters they write, or at least draw upon their own experiences in some way. It’s only when those aspects are taken to the extreme that you get a “real” Mary Sue, IMO. (But google Mary Sue and you will find an infinite number of opinions on the matter.)
I’m sure Mark Waid has better things to do than hate me.
I think some Art Spiegelman fans may actually have hated me for a brief moment back there, though.
I think I’m of a similar mind as Richard, where fan fiction is just a legal distinction meaning an unauthorized work involving copyrighted characters.
When I think of the term fan fiction, I think of things like Star Trek Phase II, the web TV series producing the “missing” fourth and fifth seasons of the original Star Trek series or the old Superman Across the Ages website that hosted short prose stories about Superman set in pre-Crisis continuity.
Noah, I get the impression the term fan fiction means something different and specific to you. What is your definition? Looking at your examples and the Torchwood article, I’m guessing that you consider sex an essential quality.
lol
fans
Hey Bryan. No, both of your examples would certainly qualify as fan fiction. I think one of the more interesting and active iterations of fan fiction, though, is slash, which generally involves homosexual pairings of characters and more or less explicit sex.
There is a lot of fan fiction which doesn’t involve sex, though…and I think even some animosity between non-sexual fan-fic and slash communities, at least in some cases.
Hey Maddy. I somehow missed your response earlier. I think super-heroes in general (male or female) are obviously always heading towards Mary Sue territory. For me, the term seems useful to describe a story or character where there’s a reiteration of the character’s specialness, or where that specialness seems to be the point. WW in Marston is obviously great in almost every way…but the stories are really more about nutty plots and bondage and telling girls in general they’re great…and Marston cheerfully sacrifices WW’s wonderfulness on any one of those altars (by having Etta rescue her repeatedly, for example.)
That’s true in general in the golden age; it’s much more about plot…as you’d expect for comics aimed at a younger demographic.
Lord Peter Whimsy on the other hand, at least in the first book (which is the only one I read) is so, so, so a Mary Sue — hey, he’s an expert cricketer! And an expert bell ringer! And who knows what else? I found that book largely unreadable for that reason. Same for the Ian Fleming James Bond books, which really are dreck.
And what about Wolverine?
It’s Wimsey, a spelling that makes the name even worse.
Ack! Haven’t read that book in a long time; thanks for the correction.
FWIW I recently read the original Mary Sue story
( http://tinyurl.com/cynwk3 )
and it struck me that we come away from the story with no sense of Mary Sue or her theoretical author (given that the story’s a spoof) as personalities. The original Mary Sue is simply a plot device for general self insertion.
I haven’t read any Peter Wimsy, but I did one see an episode of Mystery in which the announcer talked about how Dorothy L. Sayers seems to have been in love with her character. Perhaps Wimsy is as akin to idealized guys in slash as he is to Mary Sues?
He’s not gay, is the thing.
He really fits that Mary Sue story quite well. If he showed up on the Enterprise, I’d fully expect Lord Peter to save everyone with a hairpin, or the equivalent, and then get to command the ship. And probably defeat the Klingons in a game of cricket or something.
He probably wouldn’t die beautifully, though. Need to keep him around for sequels.
He needn’t be gay to be a romantic ideal… how does Kinukitty put it? A boy to moon over? Which is a bit different from a self-insertion character. A bit.
I’ve gotta’ give Captain Kirk the ultimate award for Sue-ness that doesn’t originate in fanfic.
— cleome
d’artagnan is a big, fat mary sue.
Cleome, you think Kirk more than Spock?
D’artagnan; that cracked me up.
Noah, I’ve never been a huge Trekkie, though I will watch it from time to time. I think of Spock as less Sue-like than Kirk because there are actually other prominent characters that consider one of his core values– the disdain of emotion and the elevation of intellect– to be a serious flaw; they usually don’t hesitate to let him know, either.
Also, I tend to think that Kirk is the straightest line to wish fulfillment for the target audience of wannabe’ swashbucklin’ straight guys. They’d rather be Kirk than Spock.
— cleome
Ahhh…but the Star Trek audience is actually more female than male…and always has been, I think.
I think Kirk and Spock are actually both as much objects of desire as objects of identification.
I do still really like those old Trek episodes. Shatner and Nimoy remain quite fun to watch, I think.
Is the audience they originally intended the one they actually got, though? [shrug] Certainly most K/S writers are female, because most slash writers are female. It’s nice for Roddenberry’s franchise no matter whose watching, I guess. But I doubt the original intent was to get a primarily or even heavily female audience for SciFi/Adventure.
It’s an interesting imbalance, though. When males practically walk on water and kick ass at the same time, it’s canon and so they’re beloved by everyone. When females do that, it’s rarely canon and so they’re despised by everyone. Sometimes I can’t help but express love for even the most blatant of Mary Sues, just because I like being the malcontent in the room.
— cleome