I’ve become embroiled in a bit of a to-do over at Brigid’s Robot 6 roundtable on Twilight and the San Diego Con. I thought I’d move my response over here, partly to give readers here a chance to watch me burble, but mostly to avoid hijacking poor Brigid’s thread anymore than I already have.
All right…so for those who haven’t been following the brou-ha-ha… At the con, there’s going to be a showing of the new Twilight movie. That means there will be a lot of tween girls at the con. Some fanboys are concerned that these tweens will ruin things for the “normal” fans. Several female comics bloggers replied hey, screw you fanboy. And who can blame them, really?
Anyway, Brigid, as I said, had a roundtable amongst her cobloggers at Good Comics for Kids to talk about why the fanboys need to buck the fuck up (I don’t think she’d put it that way, but tha’ts the gist). And, as I’ve indicated, I’m with Brigid and co — buck the fuck up fanboys! But I was a bit taken aback to discover that one of the fanboys singled out for chastising was…our own Tom Crippen. As you may or may not remember, Tom expressed reservations about manga and geez, the fangirls do not forgive or forget. Kate Dacey called him on the carpet:(in the original post, and with slightly more detail when pressed in comments) for calling shojo manga “girl’s stuff” and for saying it had a “kindergarden feel”.) In comments, Melinda Beasi added that such language “insulted and belittled” the women who read shojo.
So that’s the state of things. I’m going to go off on a bit of a tangent now, but I’ll get back to poor Tom and his belittling, never fear.
One of the more interesting points raised in comments on the roundtable thread is that virtually nobody actually thinks Twilight is all that good. I haven’t read it myself (though I’m hoping to see the movie this week.) But most commenters agreed that it was not especially well written and that the central relationship was creepily abusive and dumb…not necessarily the sort of thing you’d be eager for tween girls to read.
So how do you defend the fans of a crappy piece of art? Several possibilities were floated. Brigid suggested that fans of Twilight don’t necessarily agree with or fall for the book’s message:
But just because people read something doesn’t mean they buy it wholesale or take it as a model for their own relationships. Part of my daughter’s reaction to Twilight was her distaste for the relationships portrayed in the books. They gave her a chance to think about different types of relationships and articulate her own feelings, which I think was a valuable thing.
This is pretty much the cultural studies argument; pop culture is empowering because marginalized groups creatively take what they want from it and leave the rest. I have to say, I find this argument pretty hard to accept. I don’t doubt that some girls do read the novels critically and dislike bits of them. But I don’t think the books and movies have become bestsellers because the fans think they’re dumb. They’ve become bestsellers because fans like them, and their questionable relationship advice too. Or, to put it another way, pin up art wasn’t popular with guys because they liked to deconstruct the male gaze.
Robin B. says “We need to trust in the people that read the books, whatever messages the stories may send, to be smart about what they take away from them and apply to their lives” — but why do we need to do that? People (not excluding me) are often stupid and make horrible choices on a fairly regular basis. People (again, not excluding me) are often quite untrustworthy. I’m willing to accept that young girls aren’t dumber than anyone else…but everyone else is plenty dumb. If, for the sake of argument, we say that these books tend to encourage abusive relationships, why should we assume that the girls who read them are not going to learn some unfortunate lessons from that? Because, you know, and not to blame the Twilight books specifically, but…tween girls in this culture, do, on occasion, find themselves in abusive relationships for real. And sometimes they think those relationships are okay, or their fault. And one could argue that there are media images and cultural products that contribute to that mindset. Which isn’t to say “ban the Twilight books!” But it is to say, if you think they contribute to those images, maybe you don’t need to necessarily make excuses for them either.
In any case, Robin B. goes on to explain a more straightforward method of separating fans and work:
It’s a question of dismissing people, here, not the works themselves, and I think that’s the real problem for me. I can hate Dan Brown’s books (and I do) but I would never dismiss a Dan Brown fan just because they like Dan Brown.
Which sounds reasonable enough; just hate the consumable, not the consumer. Except…well, let’s go back to Tom.
Remember, Tom was accused of calling shojo manga “girl stuff” and of referring to the art as having a “kindergarden feel.”
Put aside for the moment that shojo is, in fact, by definition, girl stuff. And further put aside the fact that it is deliberately and extravagantly cutesy — big eyes, flowers, often weird fetishization of infantilized characters (a lot of shojo has extremely weird issues around childhood.) Put aside all of that. The point here is that Tom was doing with manga exactly what everybody says should be done with Twilight fans. He didn’t call anyone a kindergardener; he said the art had a “kindergarden feel.” Further, went out of his way to make it clear that he was expressing his own personal distaste for the material without insulting the readers of it (on the contrary, he was actually saying that he had missed important things, and asking for recommendations.) Tom never once says anything, positive or negative, about manga fans; he confines himself entirely to to talking about the comics. And yet, he’s still being held up as an example of evil intolerant fanboy pilloried for being “unwillingness to try and understand why manga—or, for that matter, Twilight—appeals to girls”. This even though Tom repeatedly throughout the roundtable *asks for manga recommendations* — and even expresses interest in and appreciation for, some shojo art.
So a couple of points here. First, I think this shows fairly clearly that, no matter who you are, there’s a strong urge to circle the wagons when your fandom is assaulted…or even mildly poked. This can play out in various ways, depending on power dynamics, history, and the relative personal vicissitudes of those involved. You can get borderline racism (as with that disco record burning thing in the late 70s). Or you can get unpleasant connotations of misogyny, as with the male fans whining about women at their con. Or you can just have fairly innocuous internet bickering. I don’t think for a moment that these reactions are morally equivalent…but I do think they spring from similar impulses. And it makes me kind of wonder how all those teen girls would respond if you went up to them and said, “You know, Twilight is really sexist and bad…but yeah, you go girl!” Would they really be entirely pleased?
I just want to touch on one other thing before finishing up. Kate Dacy quoted one thing that really irritated her from a male commenter on Valerie D’Orazio’s blog:
“And now, you want to talk about the TWILIGHT fans. Hell, Val they aren’t even fans of the story. They just want the actors. If it was just author Stephanie Meyer there, and no movie, no actors, the turn out would be just about nil.”
Dacy said in response “What bothers me most is the underlying assumption that girls (and women) don’t know how to be proper fans, that they’re only there for the hot guys and couldn’t care less about the books or the creator.”
On the one hand, I absolutely agree with Dacy: the comment is insulting, and also just wrong — I’m sure the fans would be incredibly psyched to meet Meyer. After all, without any doubt, some significant percentage of those fans are *writing Twilight fan fiction themselves.* Quite possibly explicit Twilight fan fiction.
Because you don’t need the hot actors to have a prurient interest in your fandom. There are other erotic levers that can connect you to your obsession. Indeed, I think it’s worth wondering whether there are anything *but* erotic levers. Vampires. Romance. Vampire romance. Hot guys, hot girls. Where exactly is the non-prurient bit? Or, alternately, if you will — manly men in skintight costumes engaged in intense, sweaty mano-a-mano combat. With the occasional preposterously clad, pneumatic heroine thrown in for good measure.
In a consumer society, consumption is a fetish. The fetish is an object you invest with power and worship — but that power is *your* power. It’s not you, but at the same time its the most important part of you. Arguments about fandom get so hot and heavy because they aren’t just about what you like or don’t like; they’re about power, love, gender, self, identity. Respecting people even as you disrespect their consumer choices is a laudable goal in some sense. But people aren’t so easy to locate. They’re not just taking up space at the con. They’re in the books or comics they read, the horrible relationship advice that causes them to swoon, the cheesecake they lasciviously drool over. They’re in their ideas. And some of those ideas (tween girls aren’t normal; abusive relationships are cool) deserve to be mocked.
Update: Over on the other thread, Brigid had an interesting take on the kindergarden thing:
Are we talking about apples and oranges here? Hello Kitty has a kindergarten feel. Fruits Basket, not so much. In fact, I think most shoujo manga is not so much cutesy as hopelessly sentimental. Vampire Knight made me feel like I was back in high school again, so much so that I stopped reading it because I’m done with high school emotions and had no desire to relive them.
If anything, the guy manga has more of a kindergarten feel because a lot of it features girls who look very childish—as I write this, I’m looking at Amefurashi, a shonen manga, which features a girl who looks like she is about 10, holding a whip. I don’t see much of that sort of character design in girls’ manga. The page layouts are often quite complex in shoujo manga, and the characters look and talk like teens/adults.
I should add that I”m grateful for the discussion Brigid and her co-bloggers put together, It gave me a bunch of things to think about, and I enjoyed the chance to kibbitz in comments and here. I’d urge folks to check out their blog, Good Comics For Kids.
Update 2: I talk more about Twilight here/
My first response is to tell you you're getting weird, Noah; Who cares about any of this?
Turns out I sort of am. Only sort of though. I'm curious about one thing; What in the Twilight relationship has been identified as abusive? I Googled a bit and it seems the male is somewhat possessive. If this is the case, I think everybody needs to take a moment and consider why a teen/tween girl might be sort of taken with the idea of a sexy, rich and magically powerful teen boy being pathologically into them.
I think at least a few people might come to the conclusion that, in fact —If we're going to apply the same terms to them— many teen girls are "sexist".
What to do about it? Nothing. I mean, who asked you guys?
About the initial complaints: There are so many people at that Con anyway. It was crowded before, and now it will be crowded with slightly cuter girls. You'd think these dopes would be sort of psyched by it. It seems like a non-issue standing in for a much more challenging one; why are so many teen girls sexist?
Well, not "getting weird" — I've been interested in fandom and gender stuff for a while.
I don't know that I'd say teen girls were sexist. But sexism and its preconceptions and ideology affect women as well as men, sure. I don't think that's especially groundbreaking. If you want to know why…there's lots of feminist authors you could read who talk about it.
Uland: The guy in the story behaves like a classic stalker in some ways. I'll have to reread (oh god save me) in order to recount specific instances, but he does follow her around and things like that.
Noah: The reason I read Twilight was that I read a fascinating essay about it online somewhere. The basic premise of the essay is that the story is about empowerment (and wish fullfilment) for its target audience, tween girls. In the story, the girl has a lot of power in ways that we as a society have denied tween girls. For instance, she lives with her dad but she gets to decide what they have for dinner. She makes lots of choices about how they live their day-to-day life.
At the highschool, and this is fairly crucial, she has friends and there isn't a hotbed of weird clique behavior. There's a teensy bit of it, but it gets fixed by a conversation. The girls talk, misunderstandings are fixed, and everything is hey presto fine. She starts hanging with the coolest prettiest people in the school and no one pours bleach in her locker. (It's kind of shocking.) I wish I could find the article. Anyway, blah blah blah, watch me go on and on.
The other point I want to make is that calling something 'for girls' is not a factual, neutral statement in our society. It's an insult. It sounds like it was taken as such. Tom may have meant it factually, but to most females of my acquaintance, we've heard the term used so many many times as the direst of insults, that this is how it will sound.
If you actually applied the same level of intellectual rigor to the rest of Comic Con, the Con would be a lot smaller.
And that's the actual issue. It's not about defending Twilight, rather why Twilight was singled out for such scrutiny and rebuke. And by all appearances, it's because it's "a girl thing."
I guarantee you, 3/4ths of the big summer movies that will have the biggest panels at Comic Con will turn out to be reprehensible, morally bankrupt garbage. But no one will question their right to be there on that basis. And what is the message behind almost all superhero comics, if not vigilantism and the right of might? If we are to have so little faith in people to think that fantastical, farcical entertainment really had the power to take over their moral compasses, then I'm less worried about a bunch of angst-ridden girls in abusive relationships, and more worried about self-righteous meatheads running around with sharp objects and a delusional mandate.
I'm not saying it's groundbreaking, Noah, I'm saying it's being avoided because it's not fun. A woman is writing these books, younger girls/women are going ape-shit over them; they are sexist . In the same way guys may not have invented sexism but often are sexist. But it is fun to call Tom a big jerk for accurately pointing out that a product was made with girls as the target demographic.
Hey Simon. Thanks for stopping by.
If you read some of my other posts (not that you should, but if you did) you'd find that I do, in fact, think that a lot of superhero comics are morally bankrupt garbage, and I sneer at them with enthusiasm (Darwyn Cooke's New Frontier is my most recent target.)
I think the art people consume does shape their moral compass (and is, of course, shaped by people's moral compasses.) That's one of the reasons its worth talking about to me; if it's all has no effect on anyone and is completely divorced from the rest of our lives, why bother talking about it?
And, as I said, tween girls do wind up in abusive relationships, which is bad. Self-righteous and violent idiots are, in fact running around wreaking havoc — which is also, in my opinion bad. These things aren't the fault of media, per se, but they're part of the same world. And I think its worth thinking about how our passions for particular bits of pop culture do, are, in fact, linked to a lot of the other parts of our lives.
But I absolutely don't think that tween girls should be singled out for special ridicule on this account. I think everyone should be ridiculed equally.
VM, I keep trying to get the significant other to watch Twilight with me. However, she keeps being busy for some reason.
"calling something 'for girls' is not a factual, neutral statement in our society. It's an insult."
People can object to a phrase, but the big problem is if they make up an argument and then attribute it to me. You don't, so thanks.
"Tom may have meant it factually, but to most females of my acquaintance, we've heard the term used so many many times as the direst of insults, that this is how it will sound."
That's a bit different from saying the term must always be an insult because of social realities. Instead you're saying that people you know will believe they're being insulted because they have heard other people use the term as an insult. Which I think is a fair point.
To continue this just for my own benefit: I don't follow fanboy/fangirl interchanges, so if I write about them I run the risk of choosing phrases with baggage. As it turns out, I did choose such a phrase and therefore a couple of people have written irritated posts. I really can't complain about that.
I all but guarantee you'll hate Twilight (as my wife did)–but my teenage nieces love it…and I had a female student writing a paper about it, saying it was feminist (yet all the evidence she used proved the opposite, humorously enough). It clearly is "fantasy fulfillment" material–yet the fantasies it fulfills are pretty disturbing from a gender/feminist point of view. Why anyone should deny its presence at a comics con is another question. Sexist vampires have been a staple of comics for quite a while (Vampirella anyone?) and having such a thing written by a woman doesn't make it any less "valid" for con inclusion–or any less stupid/offensive. Most comics suck–so does Twilight. Sounds like a decent match.
Sorry, I didn't use "you" to mean anyone specific. I guess what I should have said was "internet comic fandom at large," whose objections aren't nearly as nuanced.
Noah – I think that this was a really even-handed discussion of the issue. Simon is right, the underlying issue is the sense (felt by almost all women interested in this field) that the *real* problem is that male fans simply disregard female fans, their interests, their genre and most regrettably, their buying power. Hollywood buys into this, as does, TV, comics, manga and pretty much any entertainment and sports medium. Everyone "knows" that women go to mens' movies/games, but that its simply not commutative. You can't tell me that the monicker "chick flick" is meant with respect. :-)
Comic-Con is not the source of this problem, nor is the lack of pink in comic stores. Like gaming, like any form of fantasy, like the very language with which we discuss these issues, there is an underlying assumption of male privilege.
I'm not saying that there's a way to "fix" this – or even that it needs to be fixed. But count me among the women who feel the need to point out (perhaps irritatingly often to some "real" (i.e., male) fans) that women not only read, buy and make comics, that we read, buy and make comics that guys *may not like* sometimes. But that's okay because, ultimately, there's room for all of us at Comic-Con. Hopefully one day, there'll be room for all of us in the comic store, too.
Hey Erika. I'm very sympathetic to that position (as I tried to make clear, perhaps not entirely successfully.) I think its more likely that comic stores will simply disappear than that they'll be a change in the male culture surrounding them…but just because I'm a pessimist is no reason to give up hope.
I think it's spurious to present the probably off the cuff outbursts of a few fanboys as symptomatic of any larger issue. How many attendees could care less about Twilight girls showing up?
How many have no real thoughts about the presence of fangirls and go to cons, mostly, to satisfy really basic desires?
All of this stuff is fine to talk about, but let's be clear that the real subject is those who are doing the talking. It just seems silly to dress it up in cosplay.
I actually kind of agree with Uland (a first?). Just because there has been some message board brouhaha about this…I think it's a bit too easy to demonize attendees of cons…most of whom are probably totally fine with "Twilight" as something to be on display, etc. there. These things get really crowded with lots of people…and my guess is that most of those people couldn't care less about Twilight one way or the other (or the uptick in female attendance)–Are all, or even the majority of, sci-fi and comics fans really that insecure and sexist? It might be fun to think so—but I doubt it. It's the lunatic fringe who tends to post incessantly and message boards and blogs—hey, wait a minute!
I totally agree that it's more-than-fine to ignore a genre, even a medium, because of an intitial negative aesthetic reaction.
Because EVERYBODY does it.
Raise your hands: Who here is reasonably conversant in 19th century sculpture, modern dance, and Native America folk-tales.
We pick our interests, somewhat at random, and go with 'em. You only got so much time in your life.
Mark, I am not conversant in any of those genres; but I've dipped a toe in them all, more or less, and like them all okay.
Uland and Eric, I sort of half agree and half not. It's true on the one hand that this seems to be based on the comments of some limited number of message board posters, rather than on some sort of scientific survey. And it does seem like maybe it's gotten more play than it really needed to or deserved. On the other hand…this sort of thing does pop up with some frequency. The idea that comic fan culture is not entirely comfortable including girls is…well, I don't think it's a crazy hypothesis, exactly.
I do agree that there's a long history of sexist comics shops and (probably) comic cons (never been to the latter)…On the other hand, I think things have changed quite a bit in recent years (from my informal survey). The people who are always telling me about cons are, in fact, women…and there seems to be an increased presence of women (as employees and shoppers) in the comics shops I have gone to over the past few years. Of course, these places are still largely male hangouts…and surely sexism exists still in these places…but my sense is that this particular problem may be overblown a bit.
Fine. Replace with minimalist classical music, redneck stand-up comedy, and the aesthetics of sports cars, then. (Smiley face.)
– MarkA
Speaking as a girl, I no longer buy or read American comics directly because of the sexism I encountered. OK, that's a lie. Noah's got me reading ancient WW.
Having had so many overwhelmingly sexist interactions, I'm more likely to hear of a couple sexist jerks and just stay the heck away from that arena. It's sort of like blood in the water, you know? There Be Sharks.
I've tried dipping my toes carefully into the comics waters in recent years, but I'm sorry to say that it has not improved significantly IME (which is why I spent most of my time with female media fen).
Mark, I like John Adams. Redneck standup comedy and sports cars are things I am not particularly interested in, though, I must admit.
I guess my general impression is that things may be improving marginally in terms of exceptance of women in comics fandom…but it's still fairly pitiful considering that how many more women actually are in comics fandom. American comics kind of had a great opportunity there to reach out to new readers…and it blew it because of a lack of imagination, provincialism, and sexism. And yeah, I think with the recession, the game is officially over.
It's weird to me that someone would base their decision on wether to buy and read something because somebody who read something a lot like it made you feel creeped out.
It just doesn't add up to me. How "inclusive" does reading a comic book have to be? It's an a-social experience, in and of itself. It's you and a comic book.
—I'm not talking about the contents of a given comic/genre work here, I'm talking about the environment in which it is purchased and later read.
Another thing that is hard for me to get a handle on is exactly what encountering "sexism" entails. Yes, there are obvious instances; remarks, drooly gazes, etc., but I do feel the need to point out that lots of dyed in the wool fanboy types are social retards and weird everybody out.
-And even if it were obvious, there is absolutely no reason to apply that to the larger group; there is tons of variation among them. The only real commonality is an interest in genre material and, maybe, some kinds of shared social histories, for lack of a better term.
I just don't understand it. I think it pops up with so much frequency because the same people keep bringing it up, over and over again.
—I'm not talking about the contents of a given comic/genre work here, I'm talking about the environment in which it is purchased and later read.
I always read alone, but what comes after reading involves other people; having no one to talk to about comic books but misogynists has, at times, turned reading them from a pleasure into an exercise in disgust. Do you think I should feel bad about that? I don't.
Another thing that is hard for me to get a handle on is exactly what encountering "sexism" entails.
Grappling with your privilege is a difficult task. It helps to not try to dictate to people how they ought to think or feel about being on the losing end of systematic oppression. Converse, if you're able.
I just don't understand it. I think it pops up with so much frequency because the same people keep bringing it up, over and over again.
The question of sexism? I think it pops up again and again because it continues to be an issue that real actual breathing female people deal with it; some of those female people, having observed that mentioning it once has not eliminated it as a factor, will even bring it up more than once. I do agree that you don't understand sexism.
Well, Uland, it's like this.
For a long time, there was a limited number of places to buy comics. Comic book shops.
In one shop, I was followed around as I shopped and the clerk spent the entire time staring at my chest. He stood about twelve feet away and just stared at my boobs.
A friend of mine went into this store, and one of the clerks touched her.
Another store, I went in and tried to buy something (an expensive book) and he said, Oh girls stuff. Then he spent a lot time sighing and wished I didn't have twenties to pay with and generally slouched around being insulting.
He wasn't weird and antisocialized. How do I know? He had perfectly normal interactions and sold several things to other customers. (Men, obviously.)
I've been ogled, insulted to my face, told I wouldn't like that, told I shouldn't buy it, and laughed at.
Why would I want to put money in these people's pockets?
My online and reading interactions have led me to believe that the producers (writers, artists, and publishers) are similar. I'm not giving them my cash.
These days I could buy a few select comics at the Borders (where no one stares at my rack), but after all that previous shit, why would I want to? It'd have to be a damn good comic.
"I do feel the need to point out that lots of dyed in the wool fanboy types are social retards and weird everybody out. "
A big part of being social retarded and weirding everybody out often involves treating women in unpleasant ways and being inappropriately suggestive. I think VM's story kind of demonstrates that. (I know VM is saying the guy dealt with men okay…but if you can't deal with half the population, I think that qualifies you as socially retarded. As well as sexist.)
I'd also say that sexism in comics doesn't just exist in interactions with unpleasant weirdos. Super-hero comics treat women in pretty dumb ways, even by the standards of male genre literature. Considering that, for example, even James Bond movies have improved, its amazing how retrograde super-hero comics can be in this regard. I don't think it's hard to figure out why VM, or anybody, might have an experience like the one she describes, might then look at some popular comics, and might conclude from all that that mainstream American comics are not worth her time.
Also…this sort of argument can head towards flame war territory very quickly, I appreciate that everyone has remained civil. Hopefully we can keep with that.
I always read alone, but what comes after reading involves other people; having no one to talk to about comic books but misogynists has, at times, turned reading them from a pleasure into an exercise in disgust. Do you think I should feel bad about that? I don't.
You're really trying to tell me that you have no one to talk to about comics other than misogynists?
It's just beyond belief, I'm sorry. Not a chance.
Even if you discount the web, unless you live in a town with 5 comics fans in it, it's highly improbable.
"Grappling with your privilege is a difficult task. It helps to not try to dictate to people how they ought to think or feel about being on the losing end of systematic oppression. Converse, if you're able."
One privilege I do not enjoy is presenting my own social discomfort as a holy charge that cannot be questioned,or placing my self beyond criticism or logic because of a special victim status history has placed in my lap.
I'm beginning to suspect that you make some sort of presumption of misogyny, or you're willing to call any form of social discomfort you feel in the presence of a male "sexism".
If this is an issue you'd like to work toward resolving, it's only fair that you define and defend your terms.
"The question of sexism? I think it pops up again and again because it continues to be an issue that real actual breathing female people deal with it; some of those female people, having observed that mentioning it once has not eliminated it as a factor, will even bring it up more than once. I do agree that you don't understand sexism. "
No, the question of sexism/misogyny in fanboy culture. You all must realize that not one of the evil hairy fanboys you're talking about are reading any of this. You must know, on some level, that you are talking to one another about one another, and not for the thousands and thousands of people who will be attending a con this weekend; even the three who made comments that provided pretext for the discussion are not reading this.
It's an absurdity to imagine that your takes on sexual politics are in any way going to inform a larger body on any noticeable scale; Some tween and teen girls are just as idiotic as their possessive boyfriends and in twenty years it will be the same, Twilight or not.
In 50 years there will be under-socialized males who don't know how to talk to girls, much less meet the standards of ideologically motivated bloggers who'll jump on their slightest misstep.
I realize you guys studied this in school, and it probably meets some other desires as well— I'm not suggesting actual sexism* is not a problem— but what is this discussion really going to provide anyone?
*No, you can't define the term however you like. It's not in the eye of the beholder.It's like any other word, or concept; it can and needs to be defined in deed.
Look, I'm not suggesting that there aren't tons of creeps lurking around the corners of the comic world.
That's an entirely different issue than the comics themselves.
There are also tons of creeps in every walk of life, I'm just willing to venture—having worked in a comic shop for a while, and having gone to a number of cons— that the only real difference is in a general lack of social awareness and a particular lack of experience with women.
When it comes down to it, it is impossible to pin the blame for this on comics, on conventions, on genre, or on "comics culture" ( there isn't one! All of these guys stay in the basement for the rest of the year, trust me.) ; it can only be blamed on those individuals who behaved or acted out in the ways you describe.
If a clerk in any shop touches you inappropriately, it's your obligation as someone who doesn't want that to happen to another woman to call the police. If some goon is staring at your chest, you need to be brave enough to tell him to stop and call him an asshole. Seriously, that's the only way you're going to get through to guys like that.
Noah- There is a huge distinction to be made between the actions of individuals and the contents of the comics they might be reading. You need to prove some kind of direct, causal link there. You know it doesn't exist.
If we're to take one posters anecdote at face value, we'll learn that a clerk at a shop treated her in a way she did not like while seemingly treating other customers who happened to be of the same gender in ways that they didn't seem to have a problem with.
You cannot apply these across the board. It's intellectually dishonest, plain and simple.
Oooookay, that's the end. Uland, I need you not to post on this thread anymore, please. If you want to talk about this topic more I'll be happy to email with you.
Noah, I'm amazed at your brazen duplicity. Shame on you. Nothing I wrote was out of line, it simply doesn't flatter your world view. If you're unwilling to deal with such reliably constant outcomes ( blog about hot-button issues=people are going to say things I might not agree with) than do not blog about them, at least publicly.
I'm happy to be called brazenly duplicitous. Just do it by email, please.
I'm in a dialog with people other than you, Noah. If they address me directly, I will probably respond. If you decide to censor or remove my response, that's on you.
You're applying an entirely different standard in this thread, Noah. Why? Either way it's embarrassing.
All right, we're closing the thread then.
Open again. Uland, I'm going to delete further posts from you here. Everyone else, please don't feed, etc.
FWIW, I guess I have to bow to the experience of actual women. If they say this remains a substantial problem, I have to believe them. Truth is, I speak to no one, male or female, when I go to the comics store (unless I bring my daughters)….so it's hard to know what the "atmosphere" is exactly. I do think these things vary from store to store (and from con to con, probably), but what do I know.
Twilight fans can get into the books. See this analytical series of pieces in Psychology Today about the series' appeal at http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/07/23/san-diego-day-0-report/#comment-3484909
SRS
Eric,
I didn't have any trouble in Philadelphia comic shops. The people there were friendly and helpful. I think it must be partially regional and I bet it does vary from store to store. (I didn't mind the slouching insulter nearly as much as the creepy dudes).
Noah, you're just being lame, gotta say. You have no real ground to stand on; I'm presenting honest, legitimate criticism that you feel threatened by, or worse, you're worried that other posters will feel threatened by ( I think they can take care of themselves, Noah. It's sexist to beleive otherwise.)
End of story.
In the not too distant past, I used to spend plenty of hours socializing at the local comic store. All had some regular female customers, along with some male customers who would come in with their wives or girlfriends.
I don't ever recall an incident where a female customer was intentionally or overtly harassed, although I'm certain some were probably put off by the atmosphere. Conversations would noticeably stop or shift focus if an unknown female walked into the store. The guys would look the female customer over, some more awkwardly than others.
That's not unique to comic book stores. When I worked at US Navy facilities, the same type of thing would happen to civilian female engineers when they interacted with the mostly male crews.
The last comic store I frequented invested a lot of money in stocking books, mostly manga, aimed at a broader audience of young children and females. Even with advertising, his customer base remained mostly the same. In the end, I agree with Noah. I think the comic book store as we know it is a dinosaur waiting to go extinct.
Also, I think every comic book store has at least one really creepy customer. They usually creep out the guys as well as the women.
I wonder how many comic book stores are owned or managed by women? Be interesting to see what sort of atmosphere exists at such a place.
BTW, the reason I now buy my books online is that when my friend closed his comic book store, I found out the next closest comic shop goes out of its way to cater to teenage boys. I was really put off by the juvenile locker room mentality. I can't imagine what it is like for a potential female customer who walks through the doors at that place.
Hey Bry. Comparing comic stores to military facilities doesn't exactly undermine the point, unfortunately. The military is notorious for sexual harassment problems.
Can you get the monthly comics online? I always assumed you had to be able to, but I have to admit I'm not sure how to do it.
I am little confused as to which point I was trying to undermine. My long winded comment was that even at comic book stores where females are welcome, at the very least, there seems to be an unconscious reaction that I think makes female customers uncomfortable.
I order all my floppies from a site called Heavy Ink:
http://heavyink.com/
It's pretty easy to order, they don't gouge on shipping, and have great customer support.
I order trade paperbacks and some small press comics from Amazon. They usually offer a discount 15% to 30% below cover price.