Mr. Alonso,
Hi. I’m Noah Berlatsky. I’m the critic who you mocked (without mentioning my name) in your interview with Albert Ching at Comic Book Resources last week.
That interview, as you know, focused on criticism of Marvel’s hip hop variant covers. Many writers have argued that Marvel has a poor history of employing creators of color, and that, therefore, its variant cover project seems to celebrate the work of black art at a company that has largely ignored black people. I made that argument myself at the Guardian. In doing so, I failed to acknowledge that Marvel had hired many people of color to do the cover variants. I apologized for that on twitter. And, as I said, you took that as an opportunity to throw some elbows my way.
I have no objection to the elbows. I screwed up. I erased people of color when I was trying to highlight the ways in which they are erased, and for that I deserve ridicule. As one injured party, whose good efforts I should have acknowledged, you’re well within your rights to pile on.
However, I was distressed to see that you used my error as a way to dismiss, not just me, but everyone who had expressed concern about this marketing initiative. You wrote,
A small but very loud contingent are high-fiving each other while making huge assumptions about our intentions, spreading misinformation about the diversity of the artists involved in this project and across our entire line, and handing out snap judgments like they just learned the term “cultural appropriation” and are dying to put it in an essay.
That may well be an apt description of me. But you have to be aware that many other writers, who did not make the same errors I did, have raised objections, both to Marvel’s failure to employ black creators and to its generally dismissive tone when confronted. Why, in short, are you responding to one white writer who screwed up, rather than engaging with the many black writers and POC writers who have discussed this issue? I’m sure all of these folks have already been drawn to your attention, but in case you missed them, people who have tried to talk to you about this problem include David Brothers, J.A. Micheline, Shawn Pryor, and Osvaldo Oyola.
Many more people have weighed in on social media. Perhaps this is just a “small” contingent compared to Marvel’s whole audience. But it is part of the “dialogue” with hip hop you claim to want Marvel to engage in. People want to know why Marvel claims to love hip hop, but won’t hire black creators to write and draw its ongoing comics. And your response is to, very deliberately, engage with a white critic who made a mistake, while ignoring all the black people and people of color who have voiced serious concerns. That doesn’t seem like you want a dialogue with hip hop, or with anyone. It seems, instead, like you want the credibility of hip hop without engaging with the community and without doing the work.
Along the same lines, it’s great that artists like de la Soul and Nas like their covers; you gave them props, and they responded enthusiastically. However, I wish you would take a moment to go back to them and explain that you are using their endorsement as a way to avoid discussing the lack of black artists on Marvel’s regular comics line. Perhaps they would be fine with that. But it seems like you should give them the opportunity to say so, rather than making assumptions.
I suspect you will never see this letter. I had hoped CBR would give me the chance to post this on their site, especially since, in my view, their interview was sycophantic and broadly unworthy of them. Unfortunately, for me, and I feel for their integrity, they decided not to give space to a reply.
But since you made your response to criticism all about me, I felt like I should try to tell you, even if only in a small voice, that it isn’t about me. Because, as I hope you’re aware, hip hop is way bigger than me. It’s bigger than you, too. And yes, it’s even bigger than Marvel. The folks criticizing you are asking you to live up to this music and art and movement that you’re claiming that you love. As it is, the only bit of hip hop you are demonstrating real affection for is industry rule #4080. If you’d like to change that, you need to maybe stop talking and start listening — though not, in the first place, to me.
Thank you for your time,
Noah Berlatsky
“in a larger sense, you’re saying definitively that there’s a concerted effort to bring greater diversity in creators to Marvel’s ongoing titles, and that’s something we’ll see the results of in the near future?
Alonso: Yes. Our doors are open. Always have been.”
Mr. Burns, your campaign has the momentum of a runaway train. Why are you so popular?
That was a particularly painful line. “We’re not doing anything, and don’t plan to do anything, but it’s nice of you to frame it as if we care, CBR.”
I would like to know what your own personal engagement is with hip-hop culture that qualifies you to judge this initiative by life long hip-hop heads. For example, do you perform any of the 4 elements or make hip-hop music or art yourself? What was the first hip-hop record you bought? First one you loved? Favorite MCs, DJs, producers? Favorite styles/eras? Do tell…
So, this would be the part where I would again point out that I’m not actually the person to be listening to? I’d suggest you read the links by David Brothers, especially, but also Osvaldo and Shawn and J.A.
Fwiw, I’m a longtime fan of hip hop. But I don’t think it takes any particular perspicuity to note that Marvel has no black creators on its line, and that that seems to contradict its arguments about having a dialogue with hip hop.
Do you feel that POC aren’t allowed to criticize Marvel unless they’ve been validated by you, as an anonymous internet commenter, as far as their relationship to hip hop goes? That doesn’t seem very reasonable to me.
I’d ask anyone what their personal relationship to hip-hop is as it relates to this “issue”. I personally think the conflation of Black culture and hip-hop culture here is shallow & disingenuous & can be construed as being insulting & reductionist for both of those cultures. Of course Black folks are the primaey architects of hip-hop culture but I fail to understand it being a birthright to anyone unless they actually, y’know, engage the culture. And for Black culture to be seen as primarily relevant only when hip-hop is involved smacks of an insulting narrowing of the rich culture of Black Americans.
Finally, as far as the “dialogue” between hip-hop & comics. Since the 70’s hip-hop has referenced comics REPEATEDLY and primarily MARVEL. It’s hard as hell for me to wrap my head around hip-hoppers co-opting & obviously referencing Marvel properties, and gaining from it, over DECADES & folks taking issue when Marvel does the same. The criticism is overall just mad Mr. Fantastic (it’s a stretch & a manufactured issue IMO)& I’m a Doom guy anyway so…
I’m sorry I neglected to say that stating my opinion or view of the issue is in no way an indication that anyone can not or should not have tbeir own opinion. The idea that simply expressing a dissenting view from the small/vocal cadre of critics is trying to somehow silence them feels quite hypocritical from people claiming they want alternate voices to be heard. Especially if the critics claim an authoritative voice on hip-hop when others just as engaged in the culture do not agree.
So, I think you’re confused in a couple of ways.
First, a dialogue requires two participants. Hip hop has referenced Marvel repeatedly. Marvel has had much, much less engagement with hip hop. As Leonard Pierce said earlier this week, characters like Charcoal and Dreadlox do not indicate a real engagement with hip hop’s themes or artists. That’s why people are saying that this looks bad; Marvel hasn’t given a crap about hip hop in the past, and now it does all of a sudden? It seems opportunistic—especially when there’s no real effort to try to include the work of black creators in the company.
Also, to me at least, it’s inflected somewhat differently when an artist includes a reference, and when a company does a giant promotional initiative.
Overall, though, I think cultural appropriation is less the issue than just racism. It’s racist to not have a single black creator on your company’s line. Period. Yes, hip hop means a lot of different things and speaks to a lot of different communities. But it’s not an art form closed to black people. Marvel comics appears to be. That’s a contradiction, and, in my opinion, an ugly one. Alonso has done nothing to address it. I think he should.
Finally, I’m not saying that dissent silences critics. I’m saying that Alonso engaging with one white critic who made a mistake, and ignoring poc who disagree with him, is intentional, creepy, hypocritical, and bullshit.
I guess I don’t see the initiative as anything but Marvel’s decision makers being of an age now where they grew up on hip-hop & want to pay homage to classics and make some money in the meanwhile (which ties in with how many hip-hop artists operate). Marvel may be late in showing proper respect to a culture that has greatly helped people, self included (Doom being my favorite Marvel villain should say something), get into comics, but I think better late than never and that it’s a good sign looking forward, particularly given the PoC artists involved in the creation of many of the covers.
Perhaps I’m blinded by how cool I think the covers (that Nas/Miles cover, man…) are?
Also, I can’t speak to why Marvel has no Black creators, I have to take your word for that too. I don’t assume that no Black creators on staff currently means, either, that Marvel has shut its doors on Black creators. Maybe if the Black Panther reboot is written and drawn by white men, I will start to understand the complaints better & see them as more legitimate than I do now.
To Alonso himself, if he’s really the hip-hop head he claims to be, I understand his dismissiveness to the critics. Even the breakdancing line was important to that, I know folks have mocked that. But Breaking is one of the Original and largely lost elements of the culture. Learning to breakdance is not easy, takes time, dedication & respect for the art form of hip-hop. Noting that a creator is a real deal B-Boy does mean something IMO. It shows a connection to & initiation into the culture of hip-hop
Storm’s been drawn by white guys. Black Panther in the past has often been drawn by white guys.
I don’t think Marvel has announced its entire creative line; there don’t seem to be any black creators so far though. (Again, David Brothers’ piece is a good source.) It’s depressing that when asked repeatedly what he was going to do about hiring black creators, Alonso’s response was just, our doors are open, and implied that the doors have always been open. But Marvel’s hiring of black creators has been for shit for decades, and rectifying that requires proactive action, not just a vague promise to maybe hire somebody if they happen to come through the door.
He obviously made an effort to hire POC creators on the hip hop covers. Which is great. Why not make a commitment to do that for the ongoing work as well? How hard would that be?
Hip hop is definitely into the dozens. Generally, you’re supposed to actually confront your critics and beat them with wit and skill. Using a softball interview to sleazily avoid your most powerful critics isn’t hip hop. That’s corporate bs.
Well, unfortunately, hip-hop has become more of a corporate culture than an organic one over that past two decades anyway. Alonso’s snark & dismissiveness is actually a lot like how rappers handle “beef” in 2015. That said, it’s certainly fair to say he should more specifically engage the criticisms & open himself up to a Black comics & hip-hop head interviewing him in the way Waid has agreed to an interview with @MizCaramelVixen
I didn’t know Waid had done that. That’s great. I think he’s handled the criticism over the Strange Fruit comic quite graciously, overall.
I think he has too & I’m actually quite curious to read the rest of the series & see if the criticisms still stand up when the whole story is told. Those criticisms also really irked me but I’ve come around a bit & understand better that it’s important to consider those criticisms as valid even if I disagree myself. One thing about SF & Ms. Micheline’s piece was that she appears to be British & Waid/Jones actually have cultural roots in the American South. That doesn’t invalidate her criticism (I am certain that Black Brits face discrimination & marginalization) but it’s something to consider IMO.
I’m sure you’ve seen this, right? http://kennykeil.tumblr.com
No! I hadn’t. That’s pretty amazing.
It is. I find his gripes with the covers more legit, but still feel the idea is fair game since he used their characters anyway & both hip-hop & comics deal a great bit in “sampling”.
He sort of wins by virtue of the fact that his covers/responses are way better, whatever you think of the merits.
Obviously Marvel didn’t do anything illegal. I think Keil is right though that it would look a lot better for them if they’d reached out to him.
I agree completely, and regardless they should reach out now & recognize the “dis” covers are totally in the hip-hop tradition.
Pierce’s post immediately think of MF Doom, too (and others, but Doom towers over the rest). But then — a dialogue requires not just two people talking, but two people listening. If anything, the fact that Doom exists makes Marvel’s disengagement with hip-hop worse.
Hi guys,
Not to derail your conversation too much, can add one more thing to this topic. As person of color and a designer I find these covers to be terrible. Period. Was there an art director around to guide these guys? Did any of the artists hired at Marvel understand what the original designer(s) intended when they made those album covers and how they worked with the album? No?
Then not only did they flubbed the intent of those covers for a cheap buck, but Marvel was just lazy and cynical. Here is an example on how a true homage works, this artist got it right in my opinion. http://www.loganmillswalters.com/wu-note/
…whoops, forgot to use all caps when you spell the man’s name
Holy crap those are great! It’s not just that the designs are more fun; it’s that they actually have something to say. Imagining a world in which hip hop is this cool, semi-snooty sign of sophistication is just really fun and funny and interesting and bizarre.
At the Guardian I wrote about how the Ant Man cover (Born to Shrink) is actually offensive; it ends up kind of thoughtlessly mocking the Biggie cover, which is about racism and the vulnerability of black children (in my view.) But yeah, all the covers are kind of bleah at best. It’s pretty much just, stick a Marvel hero where the rapper should be.
Keil’s NWA (Norse with Attitude) is great too; it’s a sly dig at Marvel’s whiteness, I think, as well as just being a goofy idea of having Norse gods as a posse.
@Noah
‘Imagining a world in which hip hop is this cool, semi-snooty sign of sophistication is just really fun and funny and interesting and bizarre.’
Well, sort of, but – to a somewhat lesser degree than jazz, but just give it another sixty years – that’s what ’90s hip hop has already become.
This is why I wish “racialist” had caught on as a term for structural white supremacism. It certainly provokes fewer defensive backlashes.
Late to the discussion, and I’m onside with pretty much everything Noah says here, but I wanted to add… I *do* really like the Miles Morales cover. Most of the covers seem to be careless mix-and-match efforts without much thought given to how the characters and covers might align. I could be over-estimating the amount of thoughtfulness given to this cover, but, at least superficially, it seems like a really smart pairing and a beautiful result.
And even though it’s needlessly repetitive: that Alonso interview is just awful.
I was glad to see Albert Ching brought the topic up again the following week and tried to pin Alonso down more. Didn’t really work, but made him look bad, and I appreciated that CBR did that. Makes me feel better about them.