Art Young illustrations, part 1

These are some illustrations that didn’t make it into the Art Young gallery that ran in TCJ a while back.

I found the ones below in a best of collection of Young’s work published in 1936. I’m not sure exactly when they were originally created, except that it was before 1936 (obviously), and given the content and style probably after 1905 or so.

Eleven Hours A Day

It’s Hell

Bore to be a virgin.

The ones below are all spot illustrations from Hell Up To Date published in 1892.

And the first of those below is from Through Hell With Hiprah Hunt, published 1901. The other two are from Art Young’s Inferno, published 1934.

Reckless Talkers

Satan’s Palace

Various Devils

I believe all of these are out of copyright, incidentally, so, you know, use them for album art.

I’ve written a fairly long essay about Young, which is here.

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Art Young in Hell

I’m reprinting here the essay on socialist cartoonist Art Young which ran in TCJ 273. I lack the technical expertise for footnote capabilities, so the relevent source info is sprinkled throughout rather than referenced with tiny numbers. I’ve also edited the ending a little.

When this essay ran, it accompanied a gallery of Art Young images. I have put some of his drawings here; hope to get more of them up as the week goes on.

In any case, here’s the essay.

Building a Better Abyss

Hell is like Shakespeare: every generation invents its own. No surprise then that Art Young, who was born just after the Civil War and died in the middle of World War II, lived long enough to create several.

Young’s interest in the nether world started early. As an adolescent art prodigy in small-town Wisconsin, he got ahold of and devoured the edition of Dante’s Inferno illustrated by Dore. It was, he later recalled,“ the first book to give me a real thrill.” That initial impression was lasting: Young went on to study art in Chicago, New York, and Paris, and became something of an expert on the history of illustration, but his enthusiasm for Dore never wavered. “[I] counted him the greatest artist of his time,” he said. “I estimated the gift of imagination in all of the arts as supreme. And Dore had it.” [Art Young, Art Young: His Life and Times, John Nicholas Beffel, ed., New York: Sheridan House, 1939, pp. 52, 133.)

Young’s first book was a direct tribute to his hero. Hell Up to Date is what the title says — a trip through a modern Inferno, circa 1892, sprinkled with illustrations influenced by Dore’s woodcuts. At the time of writing it, Young was in his mid-20s, and clearly going places. His cartoons were selling briskly in Chicago, and he was making friends and connections among both artists and newspapermen. He suffered a chastening setback in Paris, when he contracted a case of pleurisy which almost killed him. But even while painfully recuperating at his parents home, he had every reason to be excited about his future.

Thus, Young’s book is a hodgepodge. On the one hand, he faithfully imitates many of Dore’s tropes: dramatic shading and composition, detailed draftsmanship, panels cluttered with figures, and long perspectives to suggest vast underground spaces. Yet, where Dore’s goal was to overawe, Young’s first version of Hell must be one of the least histrionic on record. Feeling that Dante and Dore were “too serious about Hell,” he created an Inferno which is basically an extended series of gag cartoons — Thomas Nast caricatures trapped in Renaissance paintings. Young’s sinners tend to look annoyed or constipated rather than tormented, and the elaborate punishments he devises for contemporary pests are clever rather than gruesome. Unfeeling editors are consigned to red-hot wastebaskets, unattentive husbands are dressed in drag, and hobos are forced to bathe. The general tone of comfortable irony is embodied in the narrator, R. Palasco Drant. A wise-cracking city newspaperman, Drant is so filled with spunk and get-up-and-go that he greets the Ancient Enemy with a jovial “Howdy, Sate!” and then promises to give the Inferno a PR boost via “six columns” in a major metropolitan daily. (Art Young, On My Way: Being the Book of Art Young in Text and Pictures, New York: Horace Liveright, 1928, p.19; Art Young, Hell Up To Date: The Reckless Journey of R. Palasco Drant, Newspaper Correspondent, Through the Infernal Regions, as Reported by Himself. Chicago: The Schulte Publishing Company, 1892.]


The Renaissance is dead but not buried: one of Dore’s illustrations for The Inferno.

In his introduction, Young notes that his purpose in writing the book was “to learn if the region of fire was the same as of old, or whether it kept pace with the triumphal march of progress.” He claims that it has and that Hell is “now run on the broad, American plan.” But this is a little disingenuous. Young’s Hell has an agnostic sense of humor; it has modern sinners; and it is mechanized — with trolley-cars, pneumatic tubes, and the other technological paraphernalia of the late nineteenth century. Yet, for all these differences, Drant’s Hell and Dante’s Hell work in much the same way. Those who have sinned on Earth are cast into the Pit where they suffer retribution. Hades is a place where wrongs are righted and evil-doers punished. Hell has changed in form, not in function.

Hell Up to Date had decent sales, and over the next decade Young drew some further Hell cartoons in the same vein for various periodicals. These were published in book form in 1901 as “Through Hell with Hiprah Hunt.” At that time, religious fundamentalism was associated with economic progressivism: William Jennings Bryant, for example, was famous for his opposition to both evolution and big business. The Hiprah Hunt of the title is probably meant to be a caricature of populist religious radicals. I say “probably” because Young himself doesn’t seem to know quite what he was doing with this volume. The new illustrations are excellent: Young has moved towards a looser, more cartoony style, and his devils are both cuter and creepier. A few ink-wash paintings are especially lovely. But the fact remains that most of the book is a retread of Hell Up to Date; many of the drawings are simply reprinted from the earlier volume, and many more are altered only so as to replace newspaperman Drant with preacher Hunt. To make matters worse, Drant’s boisterous narration has been toned down, shifted to third person, and thereby robbed of much of its charm and humor. Here, for example, is a description of a careless dentist who Drant finds being tortured in Hell Up to Date:

“It was the very man who had, a few years ago, pulled me all over a new set of plush furniture, down two flights of stairs and back again, in a frantic endeavor to extract a tooth that I insisted didn’t need extracting.”

And a description of the same dentist from Hiprah Hunt:

“He sees a dentist he had known, a man who was just as sure to pull a tooth that didn’t need pulling as one that did — whose filling work invariably had to be done over by someone else.” [Art Young, Through Hell with Hiprah Hunt: A Series of Pictures and Notes of Travel Illustrating the Adventures of a Modern Dante in the Infernal Regions. New York: Zimmerman’s, 156 Fifth Avenue, 1901.]

It’s hard to present a convincing afterlife when you’re experiencing a crisis of faith, and that is more or less what Young was going through at the time he put together his second book. Up to the turn of the century he had been a “Republican without knowing why;” the newspapers he worked for expected him to draw cartoons promoting the tariff and attacking the Haymarket rioters, and so he did. But in the early 1900s he began to move sharply to the left. He listened to lectures by British labor leader Keir Hardie and read the work of muck-rakers like Lincoln Steffens and Upton Sinclair. In 1902 his opinions had shifted enough that he decided to volunteer for the populist campaign of Gov. Robert La Follette of Wisconsin. Eight years later, in his mid-forties, he considered himself a socialist. Unwilling to draw cartoons in support of the editorial positions of mainstream papers, Young increasingly turned to the radical press, especially to The Masses, which he helped to found and edit. (quoted in Young’s entry in The Dictionary of American Biography, Supplement Three, 1941-1945.)

Young himself believed that he did his best work after what he called his “awakening” in 1906. This was certainly the case for his illustrations of Hell. Socialism had taught Young to believe in injustice, in cruelty, and in evil. His drawings of the nether-world were no longer entertaining goofs; they carried a new conviction, and even a theological weight. For example, “This World of Creepers” from 1907 shows an unending stream of terrified nonentities crawling through a bleak landscape while the word “Fear” hovers grimly overhead. Though not strictly a picture of Hell, the image is more convincingly infernal than anything Young had done earlier. On the other hand, the 1918 cartoon “Having Their Fling,” explicitly suggested that capitalists, politicians, and others who supported World War I were doing the work of Satan. The notoriously humorless Wilson Administration was not amused, and used the cartoon as evidence when it prosecuted Young and several other members of The Masses’ staff for conspiracy to obstruct recruiting. (quote from Young’s introduction to Art Young, The Best of Art Young, New York: The Vanguard Press, 1936, p. xvii.) For a fuller account of the history of The Masses, including the trial, you can read Madeleine Baran, “A Brief History of the Masses,” (April 2003) Brooklyn Rail , available online here . Even better is Rebecca Zurier, Art for the Masses (1911-1917): A Radical Magazine and Its Graphics, New Haven, CT: Yale University Art Gallery, 1985. This is also one of the few books in print that includes a substantial number of Art Young’s cartoons.)


“Having Their Fling”, the Masses cartoon for which Young was prosecuted.

Young continued to dabble in devil imagery over the next decade. A semi-regular series called “Postcards in Hell” ran in Young’s own publication, “Good Morning,” from 1919-1921. A group of fanciful illustrations of neurotic complexes for The Saturday Evening Post in the late 1920s seem demonically inspired. But it wasn’t till 1931 that Young once more turned his full attention to the Pit. The Great Depression had just set in, and Young was finding it difficult to sell his cartoons; to make matters worse, he was now over sixty, and his health had taken a serious turn for the worse. Tired and disheartened, he nonetheless remembered that

“an idea took hold of me which lifted my spirits away up…. Before I go to the poorhouse, I told myself, I’ll write and illustrate one more book. Though nearly forty years had gone by since the publication of my first volume, Hell Up to Date, the curious interest I had had then in the infernal regions once more absorbed my thinking. I had seen so much hell on earth that I was eager now to find out what the ancient theological region was like after the passage of four decades.” [Art Young: His Life and Times, p. 416. Ellipses in the original.]

As it turns out, Hell had changed a great deal since Young’s first exploration in 1892. In Art Young’s Inferno, published in 1934, Young reports that “Big Business organizers and Bankers” had been going to Hell in such numbers that they had managed to take over. Satan retains a ceremonial role, but the real power is now vested in an All-Hell Congress controlled by business interests. The new overlords have no interest in punishing the unjust; rather they want to “make money out of Hell.” To this purpose, they establish schools which are “operated like factories to produce standard size thought” and hospitals to which “poor sinners are sometimes grudgingly admitted.” The sophisticated Hellions have even, Young notes, “learned to use the word ‘sorry.’ A gentlemanly Hellion tears out the heart of his brother, spits on it and says, ‘I’m sorry.’” [quotes from Art Young, Art Young’s Inferno, New York: Delphi, 1934.)

Not many critics have mentioned Young, but those who have tend to agree that he was a backward-looking artist. Journalist and admirer Heywood Broun claimed that “modern art never so much as rumpled [Young’s] hair.” More recently, Rebecca Zurier has commented that Young “had little patience with formal experiment.” Young certainly did enjoy sneering at “abstract, obfustic, neo-mystic and 4 dimensional painting,” as a sign advertises in one of his Inferno’s art galleries. But he also learned from them. In his first Hell book, he could almost have passed for a nineteenth century illustrator. But by the time of the Inferno, his figures’ anatomy is simplified, backgrounds are sometimes eliminated altogether, and the compositions — like much of European modernism — have been influenced by Japanese design. Young does include a few imitations of Dore illustrations, but even these serve only to demonstrate how far his style has diverged from that of his childhood hero. Gone are the individualized caricatures; this version of Hell is populated by undifferentiated souls, writhing blindly in a flattened, expressionist landscape. By embracing new forms, Young has finally managed to capture Dore’s gothic romanticism — and in some cases even to surpass it. [from Broun’s, introduction to The Best of Art Young, p. xi; Zurier, p. 133.]


Dore is dead and resurrected as modern art, from Art Young’s Inferno.

Young never loses his sense of humor, however, and thereby avoids two of Dore’s characteristic flaws: melodrama and vindictiveness. Young’s Hell can be gruesome, as when he shows “the blind, Idiot Giant War” eating people like popcorn.. But it can also be petty: overcrowded trains, a lack of public toilets, having an ear catch on fire. Hell is in the details, and nobody escapes — demon and damned alike are tormented by the quest for money, by fear of their fellows, by a society in which everyone is dedicated to making everyone else’s life both a misery and a woe. All suffer, all are to blame, and Young manages to present all with at least a touch of sympathy. Satan, of course, is a pathetic figure “An anachronism — a failure — beaten at my own game!” as the Devil himself puts it. But even Young’s real nemeses, the capitalists, “are also in misery peculiar to their caste…,” gripped by the fear that “friends are mere money-friends, that love is money-love, that hands everywhere would snatch their money from them.”

If all of this sounds familiar…well, that’s only because you’re living it. Young’s nether-world is simply the capitalism-dominated earth of 1934, prey to money-lust, greed, fear, injustice, and war. Young would be saddened but not surprised to learn that it also reads remarkably like an account of the capitalism-dominated earth of 2005. This particular Inferno may not be everlasting, but it does seem likely to be around for a while.

*******************************

Young placed himself “in the ranks of those who do the world’s work, get no credit for it, and die forgotten.” It’s unclear whether it is Young’s socialism, his romanticism, or simply bad luck which has doomed him (and peers like Boardman Robinson) to obscurity. Whatever the reason, though, the fact remains: Young’s art may be as relevant as ever to our own time, but it hardly matters since no one is looking at it. None of his books are in print, and only a handful of his drawings are available online.

Nor is his influence any easier to locate than his pictures. Young’s work is a remnant of a time when it made sense to mention periodical illustration and fine art in the same breath. Young himself was, he says, initially as interested in painting as in cartoons — he chose the later only because he felt that by doing so he could reach more people. [Life and Times, p. 9] He stuck to his path once he had chosen it, but that didn’t mean that he stopped experimenting. Though I’ve focused here on his most allegorical work, he also did more straightforward political cartoons, as well as slice-of-life drawings and social satire. His style varied widely depending on his theme, and so did his medium — most of his work was with pen and ink, but he also did ink brush painting, crayon drawings, and seems to have also used chalk on occasion. In contrast, political periodical illustrations today are divided between single-panel, caricature-laden one-liners and comic-strips in which poorly-drawn pundits reiterate talking-points from yesterday’s news cycle. Young’s invention and craftsmanship have been almost entirely lost. (One contemporary cartoonist who does cite Young as an influence is Eric Drooker). I’m sure there are others as well, but they are not exactly thick on the ground.)

For some examples of Young’s work, see this gallery. Rebecca Zurier’s The Art of the Masses, mentioned earlier, is available from Amazon last I checked. Also relatively easy to get a hold of is Willaim L.O’Neill Echoes of Revolt: The Masses 1911-1917, Chicago: Elephant Paperbacks, 1989. Syd Hoff’s Editorial and Political Cartooning (1976) and Stephen Hess’ The Ungentlemanly Art (1968, 1975) both have a few Art Young images as well. The Inferno has been reprinted twice; once in 1970 by A. Saifer, with adequate though not stellar reproductions, and once in a lame and incomplete edition by Quixote Press in 1980. Young’s magazine Good Morning was collected by Greenwood Reprint Corporation in 1968. After that you’re pretty much left to the original publications…good hunting!


Self-portrait of Art Young sketching devils, from Art Young’s Inferno.

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The Sequential Art That Dare Not Speak Its Name

This is a pretty amusing take on my back and forth with T. Hodler. Read it through and then ask yourself, what’s missing?

The commentators, of course, take me to task for liking Johnny Ryan and Fort Thunder. But the main thrust of my post wasn’t about either of those artists. It was about manga: the thing that’s, you know, actually more popular than Chris Ware and Clowes put together — the thing all those bookstore shelves are devoted to?

Oh right…by women, for women, not on your pull list at the local comic store. Might as well not exist.

Just out of curiosity, what’s it like having a blindspot bigger than your head?

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Media Empire

I’ve got a couple of things published this week.

Two pieces in the new Comics Journal, one about the gay-love cooking manga “Antique Bakery” and a short blurb about Dirk Tiede’s manga-like horror/cop-drama Paradigm Shift.

And a rant/poem/whatever up on Poor Mojo’s almanac called A Pundit In Every Pot-Head

While you’re over at Poor Mojo’s, incidentally, you should check out the Giant Squid’s advice column. It can’t really be effectually described, but check out this one from a couple of weeks ago about ninjas, pirates, President Lincoln, Nikola Tesla, and Thomas Hobbes among other things.

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Not John Byrne but…

This is from one of the first comics I remember reading (and I think I actually read it in England, where it was reproduced in black and white….)

I’d always assumed it was drawn by John Byrne, but apparently its a different Kirby acolyte named Dave Cockrum.

Anyway, here’s my abstract version of the same page.

The edges got a little snipped, but I figure no one minds but me, and I didn’t really want to scan twelve times to get it right…..

The text reads, “When I solve a puzzle, I am smart and you are confused.” Said by my son, of course.

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Art is Education — Review by Bert Stabler

I had originally hoped to do this blog with my friend, mentor, and sometime collaborator Bert Stabler. Alas, he doesn’t have the time at the moment. Nonetheless, he’s agreed to let me post some of his reviews if I don’t trouble him about it too much. So here’s an article which ran last week (in somewhat altered form) in the Chicago Reader. If you’re in Chicago, the exhibit is still up, so you should be able to check it out for a brief while at least.

PEDAGOGICAL FACTORY: EXPLORING STRATEGIES FOR AN EDUCATED CITY HYDE PARK ART CENTER

By Bert Stabler

Schools, like prisons and hospitals, are mysterious social institutions, dedicated to lofty but ill-defined goals regarding the benighted populations that sluice through their corridors. And, as with prisons and hospitals, the result is often messy. I should know, I’ve been working with Chicago Public Schools students for ten years. “Pedagogical Factory,” a new project at the Hyde Park Art Center spearheaded by Jim Duignan of the Chicago-based Stockyard Institute, attempts to provide concrete examples for improving education. The series of events and workshops Duignan has put together with Daniel Tucker of AREA magazine has nothing to do with technocratic arguments over assessments and accountability, and looks past the notion of school as a defined, programmed place. Their events bring together a variety of people who approach socially progressive.learning through collaboration, participation, research, and lived experience.

Given my dewy-eyed expectations, I must admit to being slightly taken aback when I saw how much the space resembled a school. A giant chalkboard 15 or 20 feet tall listed all the upcoming events. It felt a bit like the authoritarian instructions of a giant absent teacher, evoking the power dynamics that make school so unpleasant for so many. A number of publications, DIY in form and content, are on racks in a spacious but spartan area of reading tables constructed by Material Exchange from salvaged materials. An little trailer in the corner houses a low-power radio station, SPOKE, used primarily to play recordings of teenagers from the Austin neighborhood participating in the Stockyard Institute’s educational radio project. But initially its drab appearance evoked FEMA refugees, or a claustrophobic “time-out” space. The haphazard postings include some sloppy coloring-book-style contributions to AREA magazine’s People’s Atlas project, in which participants invent their own maps, and informative posters from the Celebrate People’s History project. In the audiovisual area is a project of the Experimental Sound Studio, the Found Chicago Sounds listening station, which features an annotated listing of ambient sounds recorded around Chicago (WBEZ has also been broadcasting these everyday soundscapes). In the end, the space didn’t remind me of an art show. It seemed, well, educational.

As I found out, the central aspect of the show is dialogue, not visuals. Besides, the look of the gallery continues to evolve. For example, some color was added by graffiti artists involved in the first event I attended. Led by instructor Jonathan St. Claire, this event, “How We Move,” was a class that broke down breakdancing into simple movement patterns, and offered useful techniques for breathing and improvising. “How We Grow,” the event I went to August 15, featured Baltimore artists Scott Berzofsky, Dane Nester, and Nicholas Wisniewski, who presented a slide show about their successful new vacant-lot farming project. It isn’t a top-down “improvement” initiative. They never asked for official permission or help with cultivating their chosen plot. Rather, they invited participation from neighborhood residents, and learned informally, from advice, research, and trial and error. Their presentation initiated a conversation on many issues, both practical and philosophical. An urban farmer from Brooklyn, Austin Schull, spiced up the gallery by gracing it with his pickup truck, which features a verdant portable greenhouse in the back.

St. Claire’s organization, the University of Hip-Hop, was founded by gifted Chicago artist and schoolteacher Lavie Raven, also in attendance on August 4. Raven was interviewed in William “Upski” Wimsatt’s 1994 book of essays, Bomb the Suburbs. In the tradition of progressive education exemplified by John Dewey and Paulo Freire, Raven stated that his goal was to be “a student, a learner, rather than an overrated teacher.” One way to blur the line between the education world and the outside world is to make a gallery look like a classroom. But it’s far better to transform traditional educational spaces with the energy and freedom of people working in the outside world, doing things like dancing and farming.

AREA is organizing a number of impressive events on Wednesdays and Sundays, featuring artists, writers, artisans, and teachers from Chicago and beyond. These lectures, discussions, and workshops are being done in conjunction with the magazine’s upcoming “How We Learn” issue. The opening panel discussion, which can be heard on wbez.org, featured local activist educational groups such as Mess Hall, Platypus, Free Geek, Chicagoland/Calumet Underground Railroad Efforts, Bronzeville Historical Society, Chicago Women’s Health Center, and the Odyssey Project. Upcoming topics include grassroots fund-raising (“How We Fund”), do-it-yourself food production (“How We Brew/Bake/Mead/Etc.”), architecture and the built environment (“How We Build”), and reconstructing the art textbook (“How We Make a Pedagogical Sketchbook”). Though the patronizing “How We X” titles remind me of an unreconstructed textbook, the programs will be exciting and relevant for those doing community cultural work. People are also invited to propose their own events or discussions. A detailed schedule is posted on stockyardinstitute.org and hydeparkart.org, and raw audio of the events is available on blip.tv.

The community focus of much Chicago art gives the city a distinctive profile in the global contemporary art context. Examples include the installations and redistribution efforts of Dan Peterman, the booklets and projects of Temporary Services, and the scrappy information sharing and flashy interventions of the Version festival. Other efforts are described in the free publication Trashing the Neoliberal City: Autonomous Cultural Practices in Chicago From 2000-2006, available at “Pedagogical Factory.” The many free performances and services, DIY workshops, and self-publishing initiatives going on in the city, though they operate at a small scale, are viable and powerful models. The real pedagogical factory–Chicago public education, with its bloated administration and constant restructuring–needs to be rethought from the inside out by considering other possibilities (like the art world), not extended further into other areas (like the art world). In the end, this show offers inspiring alternatives for improving the city with education.

WHEN Through 9/22: Mon-Thu 9am-8pm, Fri-Sat 9am-5pm, Sun noon-5pm
WHERE Hyde Park Art Center, 5020 S. Cornell
PRICE Free
INFO 773-324-5520

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A manifesto against manifestoes against vague manifestoes.

T. Hodler takes me to task in this post for various things. Most of them stem from a lack of clarity on my part, I think, and on Hodler’s assuming that I’m saying the same thing as several other folks he disagrees with.

Hodler asks, for example:

“Where are all these boring, serious art comics overreacting to superheroes? Is it really that hard to find alternative comics that aren’t memoir? Or that aren’t obsessed with distancing themselves from superheroes? Aside from a few members of the older guard, I find it hard to apply this criterion to nearly anyone.”

However, my point isn’t that the content of the comics themselves necessarily revolves around super-heroes. Instead, my argument (such as it is) is that the dominance of super-heroes, and their low critical standing, has helped to determine the current obssessions of art comics — basically, memoir and literary fiction (to the extent that the two are separable.) It’s a desire for literariness and respectability which is the trouble with comics — a desire I see as being linked to the pulp past.

Hodler also notes that Chris Ware and Dan Clowes don’t write autobio comics. Indeed they don’t. They write contemporary literary fiction, a genre which is at least somewhat distinct, but which has many of the same problems (tedium, pretension, self-absorption.) (And, of course, TCJ isn’t an example of autobio either; it’s just the foremost critical voice arguing for the literarification of comics.)

Hodler’s right when he argues:

“It is true, I suppose, that when Ware and Clowes reference superhero comics, they usually do so through parody or satire, though I think it is far too simple to categorize their approach to the genre as simply contempt or as an attempt at distancing themselves. Clowes’s Death Ray is one of the best superhero comics I’ve ever read, and while his Dan Pussey stories are fairly devastating in their treatment of superhero comics, they don’t exactly treat the “art comics” world with kid gloves, either. I would also argue that Ware’s references to Superman and Supergirl in his Jimmy Corrigan and Rusty Brown stories are just as much elegiac as critical.”

There is a good deal of elegy and nostalgia in the approach of alt cartoonists towards super-hero comics — and towards older strip cartoons as well. Unfortunately, nostalgia is just about the worst of all possible modes for art, in my opinion. Nostalgia has throttled jazz, kicked the shit out of contemporary poetry, and what it’s done to white mainstream rock is none too pretty, either. In comics, I believe it’s also a way to reconcile the genre’s pulp roots with a modern literary sensibility. Chabon’s Kavalier and Klay (which I must admit I was forced to put down in disgust after about a chapter) is maybe the best example of this — oh those darling pulp creators! They were so alive, so vital, so, so…ethnic! Let us appreciate them by penning pompous boring hymns to our own superior taste! Hallelujah!

Also, and in addition, I’ve read way more Dan Clowes than I wanted to, damn it, because everyone loves him and I’m supposed to have an opinion. But when I read it all I ever think is, who would have thought you could make surrealism so boring? It’s like Ira Glass borifying a David Lynch movie. Life is too short for that crap.

Hodler also says,

“I have nothing against manga, the best of which seems to me to be just as artistically valid as anything created in North America, and the inclusion of more female voices would be an obviously healthy development, but I will never understand so many comics readers’ apparent desire for “hugely popular” comics, and the implied belief that that popularity goes hand in hand with being “aesthetically vital”.”

Again, this is me failing to make myself clear. I hope that in the future comics will be popular because I like manga, and manga’s a popular genre. I don’t like manga because it’s popular, though. (Did that make sense? What I’m trying to say is, popularity would be part of comics if comics turned into manga, but the popularity isn’t what makes the manga good.) The point is that manga is an incredibly vital and diverse art form, with standards of craft and storytelling that leave most American comics whimpering in pitiful little puddles of incompetence.

I also think that contemporary visual art (hardly hugely popular) is quite exciting. And some popular art forms (mainstream country) are horrible.

Still, (and maybe in slight contradiction to what I just said) it’s not quite true to say that popularity has nothing to do with aesthetics. The cultural space within which a work is produced, and the way it is received, has a lot to do with a medium’s health, I think. It can just work in a lot of different ways. Mainstream comics’ very limited audience has been quite bad for its aesthetics. The even more limited audience for metaphysical poetry in the 17th century probably had good effects, overall. It just depends.

Update: Hodel responds to my response…and I think we’ll probably leave it at that.

And furthermore: I hope that those of you who came to see the fight will stay to look around a bit. I’d encourage you to check out discussions of Dame Darcy, H.P. Lovecraft and Re-Animator, contemporary R&B, art and education, plus an enormous interview with cartoonist Johnny Ryan. Also, and finally, you can see me imitate someone rather like John Byrne.

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